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We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

nautil.us

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Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#111

Post by hilop »

beat wrote: post #106
mjevans wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly Beat meant that the book explained the viewpoint of those who cry for war and destruction. The 'glory' and 'power' they feel must surely be an addictive sensation.

Within the story, it's not glory or power either. Glory comes from defeating equals - but the point is to kill the defenseless. Power comes from victory, but the victory is irrelevant. Could you kill a child? Of course not. What kind of monster kills a helpless child? But if you can do it - you have become something more than merely human. Humans are confined by their morality. Supermen are not. And soldiers? Soldier…

You would do well to go meet some real human soldiers, not just read fantasy books.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#112

Post by chillacy »

XparXnoiAx wrote: post #72
kawa wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While people are of course more alike to each other than, for example humans and cows, there are still a lot of differences between single persons. People tend to assume that other think as they do, but that's one of the most common sources for misunderstandings. There are people who can torture a child to death without feeling the smallest amount of guild (maybe they even find it funny or satisfying), others who cou…

"And it's not possible to shift a person people into all of those categories, it's mostly inborn" You're making a helluvan assertion there. You're going to need a citation, because psychology has no clue about this. -signed, A Psychopath

Are you doubting the results of personality research or that personality is genetic? A simple google search would tell you that there is plenty of evidence that personality is partly genetic:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#113

Post by chillacy »

MawNicker wrote: post #56
kawa wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone tries to explain stuff based on the "human psyche", it's important to understand that people aren't the same. If someone talks about "we" or "humanity" as a whole, he/she doesn't takes this into consideration - which makes the whole argument questionable. An estimated 2-5% of all humans are so called "psychopaths", people without the ability to feel empathy for other peoples pain. Those people are at the s…

Psychopaths have the ability to not feel other people's pain. Super important distinction. Unless you're just hate-mongering. In which case sure, they're as good a scapegoat as any.

There seems to be some evidence that people who are highly psychopathic do have underlying physiological differences which give rise to reduced empathy: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090804090946.h...

I think we all have the ability to not feel another's pain. For instance, dehumanization is a classic technique in war propaganda.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#114

Post by chillacy »

ooqr wrote: post #14
leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Pardon, I do agree there is still an unresolved desire for violence in even our own culture that we are no closer to understanding. What I found distasteful was pinning that on religion. I think there are ancient forms of knowledge -- often passed on by a story which becomes abstract after many generations -- passed on as culture, with clear evidence that parents pass on their behaviors, attitudes and values. Culture…

Related for violence is I think a desire for glory that we seem to lack in this day and age. Where you can sacrifice yourself fighting a lion to save your tribe, and your tribe honors you for that sacrifice.

It appears a little bit in sports, and a lot in suicide bombers.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#115

Post by chillacy »

beat wrote: post #106
mjevans wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly Beat meant that the book explained the viewpoint of those who cry for war and destruction. The 'glory' and 'power' they feel must surely be an addictive sensation.

Within the story, it's not glory or power either. Glory comes from defeating equals - but the point is to kill the defenseless. Power comes from victory, but the victory is irrelevant. Could you kill a child? Of course not. What kind of monster kills a helpless child? But if you can do it - you have become something more than merely human. Humans are confined by their morality. Supermen are not. And soldiers? Soldier…

Or something less than human, I'd argue. In the same vein, a cancerous skin cell becomes a "supercell" and gets to live an immortal life, no longer constrained to the cycle of death.

I suspect that people don't like psychopaths for the same reason our bodies kill cancer cells: they aren't good for society. (some argue that in small numbers they can be, but you can't run a tribe of psychopaths).

The specific mechanisms of people going against psychopaths include things like altruistic punishment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_punishment

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#116

Post by dismantlethesun »

mercutio2 wrote: post #108
dismantlethesun wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2016/bills/house/1337#digest-... Indiana General Assembly, House Bill 1337 > Requires physicians to provide information about perinatal hospice care to a pregnant woman who is considering an abortion because the unborn child has been diagnosed with a lethal fetal anomaly. The terminology of referring to the unborn as children has a long legal history. There's a similar history concernin…

You're posting a link to anti-abortion propaganda from the 2016 Indiana Assembly as an argument for why those of us who strenuously disagree that fetuses deserve the legal rights of children should agree with calling fetuses children? The Indiana Assembly is certainly an authority on one thing: legislating clever ways to restrict women's right to obtain an abortion. I don't consider them authorities on much else.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize your 'we' only referred you personally and anyone who agreed with your conclusions.

I had thought you meant a more general and inclusive 'we'.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#117

Post by namaemuta »

ythl wrote: post #79
mhurron wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are run by your morals in a completely unreal situation that has no real effects in the exact same way as you would in a real situation, you may have problems separating fantasy and reality.

I'm arguing nothing of the sort, only that the sheer number of people enjoying and fulfilling fantasies of violence and destruction are indicative of deep instinctual human tendencies. Most people would not enjoy child rape simulator 3000 because most people do not have embedded instincts to do such things. Some people, however, may enjoy CR3000, and I would venture to guess that there is an underlying reason (i.e. p…

Maybe the difference is that violence is a common thing in our society and doesn't have the impact or disgusting reflect that would have CR3000.

Being used to see violence in fantasy doesn't make you violent deep inside, you just don't give it that much importance in fantasy. This doesn't mean that you won't despise real violent acts.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#118

Post by Grangar »

vacri wrote: post #95
Typhon wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I thought Viet Nam was a more clear cut example of America being barbarous but yeah, Iraq works as well, let's not forget Abu Ghraib. Anyway, as far as I know, although my country has committed its share of horrible massacres around the world, none of it has happened in my lifetime... I just hope it'll last.

The US military learned its lesson in Vietnam: don't let the media see what you're doing. We'll simply never know how US soldiers behaved in Iraq as compared to Vietnam.

Sure we do:

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_of_U.S._Marines_urinatin...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrik...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

(not all are Iraq, but you get the picture)

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#119

Post by imagist »

Grangar wrote: post #118
vacri wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military learned its lesson in Vietnam: don't let the media see what you're doing. We'll simply never know how US soldiers behaved in Iraq as compared to Vietnam.

Sure we do: [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_of_U.S._Marines_urinatin... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrik... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp (not all are Iraq, but you get the picture)

Yes, these exist, but a few notable stories that broke are little compared to the relentless onslaught of news from Viet Nam during the war there. It was the first time that TV news from a warzone was readily available, and footage of the fighting was still shocking to people, so it attracted viewers. As a result, new footage from Viet Nam was aired every day for literally years.

The modern military recognizes the need for PR. Abu Ghraib was mostly still pictures because it was mostly leaks--press was allowed nowhere near the place. Contrast this with videos of Hussein's statue being pulled down or the "Mission Accomplished" press conference

If you cherry-pick specific instances, sure, there was negative coverage of the Iraq War, but the big picture of Iraq War coverage versus Viet Nam War coverage is very different.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#120

Post by XparXnoiAx »

chillacy wrote: post #112
XparXnoiAx wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And it's not possible to shift a person people into all of those categories, it's mostly inborn" You're making a helluvan assertion there. You're going to need a citation, because psychology has no clue about this. -signed, A Psychopath

Are you doubting the results of personality research or that personality is genetic? A simple google search would tell you that there is plenty of evidence that personality is partly genetic: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...

I'm doubting the sentence quoted.
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