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We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

nautil.us

51–60 of 125 posts

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#51
post #29

I think there's something else going on here, other than the humility of researchers who claim to be unable to understand Mexica culture. Failure to imagine what it's like to be someone else, from a different place, a different time, with different ways of thinking -- is perhaps the biggest reason why we have so much violence and hatred in this world, and modern scholars are just as guilty of it as warmongers and pro…

Is it failure of imagination? I don't know that's true.

Let's look at some of the aspect of life described in the article. Assume I'm just some artisan, good at my job, respected for my ability to work materials into goods. Making the odd innovation here and there. As a result I'm not in the ruling elite, nor the warrior "caste", but I'm doing pretty good for myself compared to most people.

Basically let's just say I'm equivalent to a decent software developer in our society.

I can imagine all sorts of things:

* I'm ashamed that I'm not a member of the fighting classes

* I don't have strong opinions of that fact

* I have a strange (to me in the 21st century USA) relationship with those of the fighting classes

* similar thoughts toward ruling elites, plus:

- Do i worship them or revile them? Do I have differing opinions on different people in that class, or do I view them as an undifferentiated mass?

- Do I expect to have any influence, or none, etc? How do I feel either way? (I can imagine having influence on the noble class but being rather upset because they are supposed to have a direct line to the gods, and why are they asking me?)

Other things I can imagine:

* Do I fear being sacrificed? Am I ashamed if I am afraid of it?

* Do I see the sacrifices as great? Or do I see them as an unfortunately necessary unpleasantry? Or do I see them as a source of shame because the rulers are out of touch? Is there an apocryphal tradition of the Gods actually being gentle and not wanting blood sacrifice, but this is being ignored by the priests?

* If my kid gets recruited to the military, am I proud or scared or both? Do I prefer his capture or his death in battle? What conduct makes me proud or not?

Basically my point here is that imagination and lack of data combined results in a truly honest answer of "I don't know which of the options for any of the questions above is right". This leads to a simple "I don't know", not because I can't fathom it for lack of empathy or imagination, but because I can see many many different ways it could be experienced.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#52
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies Yeah. it's called fiction and a more significant portion of people in the world consume all that without committing mass murder. So please, stop associating video games or movies with whatever crazy people do.

His point was that you find something gratifying in the fantasy of murder and violence. If you don't find GTA to be abhorrent, then that means deep down some aspect of the anarchy and violence is appealing to you.

> deep down some aspect of the anarchy and violence is appealing to you.

Or you like doing all the silly things a game lets you do. Because, you know, it's not real and you've probably realized that.

I guess if you play Monopoly against Grandma and ream her a new one when she lands on your Boardwalk with a hotel on it deep down you want to be a slum lord. It couldn't possibly be as simple as you like winning games.

Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#53
I think it's quite possible the level of violence seemed excessive even to the society itself.

A common problem that's cropped up in a number of modern countries is weddings getting more and more expensive. If weddings are an important means of displaying status, and it might shame the family to seem poor, then there is clearly going to be a drive that direction. Pretty soon, people are bankrupting themselves on weddings that seem excessive to everyone involved.

Cultures that engage in religious sacrifice seem to have the same sort of problem. Sacrifice shows off both status and religious zeal, so there's incentive to try to sacrifice more than others. If sacrificing slaves is allowed, ending up in an extreme state isn't all that surprising.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#54

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

No. If anything you have to radically desensitize the average person to be even able to commit violence, and in general when they can, people flee it. The whole point of boot camp and military training is to make sure the individual recruit is dehumanized enough and identified with the unit enough to be able to commit violence as needed.

Even then, desertion usually is epidemic in non-volunteer armies, and even in volunteer ones. And if violence is so good, we wouldn't see so many soldiers or police officers suffering from severe psychological trauma over committing it.

The issue with the kinds of pagan societies described in the article is that the society has successful and mass dehumanization programs in place for their elite. They select for people to commit violence and encourage people to dehumanize the act through their religious grounding. It doesn't have to be religious...gangs can create dehumanization, or secular ideology. But in general people really are peaceable, and societies like the Mexica tend to be aberrations over the long term.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#55
post #32
post #4

Carthage is much closer to western culture yet still earns its share of WTFs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Carthage#Child_sac...

Well, we abort children legally, so it is not like we have improved so much. In Spain and other countries it is legal to abort creatures that would live if taken out of the womb. We rationalize it, because the mother will not be able to give a good life to her child or whatever. What makes us think that people from Carthage could not also rationalize with more powerful reasons than us? It was way harder to live back…

> we abort children legally

No we do not, that is illegal because murder is illegal. It is not a child until it is born.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#56
post #26

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

If someone tries to explain stuff based on the "human psyche", it's important to understand that people aren't the same. If someone talks about "we" or "humanity" as a whole, he/she doesn't takes this into consideration - which makes the whole argument questionable. An estimated 2-5% of all humans are so called "psychopaths", people without the ability to feel empathy for other peoples pain. Those people are at the s…

Psychopaths have the ability to not feel other people's pain. Super important distinction. Unless you're just hate-mongering. In which case sure, they're as good a scapegoat as any.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#57

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

If it "[i]s in our nature, just like sex" then why wouldn't violence be in our best interest? Why wouldn't we be more productive just doing what we want? If it really is our nature, then how is our "modern luxur[y]?" It has been established that while violence is the human condition, altruism also has an evolutionary origin[0].

I feel like the "sweet water/bitter water" dichotomy that the Christian tradition left us[1] has been so damaging because it has formed this perspective that we can only be bad and we can only be good, rather than we can be both. I do believe some people might have different tendencies than others and some may be prone to violence or prone to love but to assume your inclinations extend to everyone else is stupid.

[0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/prefrontal-nudity/20130...

[1] http://biblehub.com/james/3-11.htm

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

If it "[i]s in our nature, just like sex" then why wouldn't violence be in our best interest? Why wouldn't we be more productive just doing what we want? If it really is our nature, then how is our "modern luxur[y]?" It has been established that while violence is the human condition, altruism also has an evolutionary origin[0]. I feel like the "sweet water/bitter water" dichotomy that the Christian tradition left us[…

[deleted]

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#59

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

> A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies Yeah. it's called fiction and a more significant portion of people in the world consume all that without committing mass murder. So please, stop associating video games or movies with whatever crazy people do.

This article also completely misses the point that games are an incredibly immersive media and can teach you a lot about a point of view.

I've played games as a cop where you're rolling through a rough neighborhood and everyone's immediately got their guard up, they're automatically on-edge. The tension between police and civilians experienced this way is nothing like reading headlines or hearing stories. It's long, empty periods of nothing punctuated by life-threatening situations which can build empathy for what some cops have to endure.

Movies edit down for length. Books are building a narrative, they're cherry-picking by necessity. In a game you can spend dozens of hours immersed in an environment, experiencing both the intensity of the situations and the mundanity of the gaps between.

I'd love to see some games put out by people in these difficult to understand cultures to better experience what they think and feel, the challenges they face, and to see the world through their eyes.

The latest installment of Deus Ex lightly touches on the issues of race relations, there using an analogy where "augmented" humans are suddenly the Acceptable Thing To Hate and are subjected to endless scrutiny, carded constantly for no reason other than being augmented.

The old "walk a mile in my shoes" principle applies here, and in most games you walk way, way more than a mile.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#60
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoy those games and movies myself. It's not my intention to suggest that enjoying those means that our socialization has failed or that we are dangerous (which I do not believe), but that those games and movies appeal to something in our nature that still exists in many of the most well socialized Americans.

There's violence and there is violence. While I can enjoy an action movie or an UFC match, watching images from the Holocaust still makes me sick.

It's a gradient: Fake violence like movies and WWE, "consensual" violence like MMA, and non-consensual violence like atrocities.
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