We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures • Hacker News Board

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#11

Post by turc1656 » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying"

It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good.

The only reason we try to eschew and condemn such violence in modern society is because it is in our best interests and more productive to society as a whole to not be like that. No other reason. If we all lived in fear and were huddled in our homes in small communities we wouldn't have even half the modern luxuries we do today. Plus, on the larger scale, if it's war you are talking about - well, they cost a lot of money/resources. So they are tough to maintain for the long haul without noticeable economic harm.

People like to say that love is stronger than anger and hate. I have always disagreed. Hate and anger run deeper than most imagine. And they motivate people like nothing else in this world, except perhaps fear.

The one and only reason people aren't butchering each other in the streets is because we have figured out a way that we can all survive. If that were to crumble, you can be damn sure society would look a lot closer to The Walking Dead or Children of Men than Star Trek.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#12

Post by calibraxis » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 1:39 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Our own cultures are mysterious to us. Why are we hurtling towards climate change? Why do we sacrifice countries full of people, like in Iraq? Why must we release toxins in water that lower people's IQs? Why do we need to cage so many humans?

Few have satisfactory explanations. (The most common ones don't stand up to basic scrutiny. Folk answers, ideological answers to explain away the ideology's problems, etc.)

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#13

Post by humanrebar » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 1:39 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #9

VLM wrote: post #4

Carthage is much closer to western culture yet still earns its share of WTFs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Carthage#Child_sac...

IMO a lot or even most child sacrifice (especially infant sacrifice) in the ancient world can be understood as ritualizing the process of killing children one does not have the means to raise.

...and a culture centered on humanism might group infanticide with medical procedures like appendectomies.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#14

Post by ooqr » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 1:42 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Pardon, I do agree there is still an unresolved desire for violence in even our own culture that we are no closer to understanding. What I found distasteful was pinning that on religion. I think there are ancient forms of knowledge -- often passed on by a story which becomes abstract after many generations -- passed on as culture, with clear evidence that parents pass on their behaviors, attitudes and values. Cultures I think blend discretely so that there are many subcultural currents. I would say all of these currents are in the same broad kind, but that their being alike in type does not imply one following the other. Even as a dire skeptic one must admit the possibility of at least a subset of religious teachings to hold some truth; perhaps passed on merely as culture, our most ancient (yet perhaps still most powerful) form of knowledge; or perhaps self-perpetuating due to its very own divine truth. I'm not a trained historian so I'd love further opinion, but the Romans did not seem to very much actually believe in their pantheon, and yet were a very mighty and violent culture indeed.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#15

Post by ooqr » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 1:42 PM UTC

turc1656 wrote: post #11

leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

Fear is the emotion which most leads us from our own control.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#16

Post by sixo » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 1:47 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #7

namaemuta wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies Yeah. it's called fiction and a more significant portion of people in the world consume all that without committing mass murder. So please, stop associating video games or movies with whatever crazy people do.

I enjoy those games and movies myself. It's not my intention to suggest that enjoying those means that our socialization has failed or that we are dangerous (which I do not believe), but that those games and movies appeal to something in our nature that still exists in many of the most well socialized Americans.

I wouldn't be surprised if, except for cases of extreme violence, if video games (especially, much more than TV since the audience takes part in the action) and the like serve to pacify their audience in the long run. Perhaps a pacifistic steady-state solution to human nature doesn't involve denying this part of human nature, but indulging it in such harmless ways?

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#17

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #13

emodendroket wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO a lot or even most child sacrifice (especially infant sacrifice) in the ancient world can be understood as ritualizing the process of killing children one does not have the means to raise.

...and a culture centered on humanism might group infanticide with medical procedures like appendectomies.

I don't follow.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#18

Post by namaemuta » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 1:57 PM UTC

turc1656 wrote: post #11

leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

> "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying"

That's an incredibly simplification of what originates violence.

People can become violent because of their frustration towards something and their lack of tools to manage their emotions, because of their past and what they have been taught, as an easy way to subjugate most of the people...

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#19

Post by eeeuiyyy » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

turc1656 wrote: post #11

leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

I'm a grown-up man and I've never played a violent game and I still look away from violent scenes in movies and tv. I've been exposed to some very violent imagery by accident in movies and I didn't like it and I didn't want to see it ever again. Is it genetic ? Is it because I was raised a Christian and only allowed to watch tv after the age of 8 ? I'm atheist now, but maybe my Christian upbringing was a factor. Or maybe my parents were Christians because they genetically don't like violence. None of my friends like violence either. They're all really nice people with kind loving hearts.

And it's not like I was born seething with violent imagery in my growing mind and had to be taught it was bad and not to be violent. I never had any bad thoughts about other kids. I did bad things like lying and stealing but never violence.

Just saying, there are many people who don't think violent thoughts, don't want to do anything nasty, who are nice people who don't need laws to stop them from doing things.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#20

Post by amelius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #12

leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Our own cultures are mysterious to us. Why are we hurtling towards climate change? Why do we sacrifice countries full of people, like in Iraq? Why must we release toxins in water that lower people's IQs? Why do we need to cage so many humans? Few have satisfactory explanations. (The most common ones don't stand up to basic scrutiny. Folk answers, ideological answers to explain away the ideology's problems, etc.)

Another question I'd like to add to your list: why are the current presidential elections such an incredible mess?

The answer to all these questions could be that democracy has stopped working.