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Dash developer's response to Apple's response

blog.kapeli.com

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Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#111

Post by metafunctor »

Apple should change their process so that they contact all linked accounts if it's possible that they would be closed.

End of.

Kind of.

Seems like Apple is working off the assumption that linked accounts are acutely aware of what each other are doing, and thus are all equally responsible for each others actions. Clearly this assumption is not valid.

Having listened to the entire call, I think both parties conducted themselves with respect and good faith. The only question unanswered in the call is “why didn't Apple notify both accounts?”.

Apple is in a position of disproportionate power here. They created the platform, they make the rules, everybody either plays by them or doesn't play at all. I really hope Apple will just be honest and admit that they did, in fact, have an inadequate process for dealing with this kind of corner case. They did make a mistake. They closed someone's account when it shouldn't have been closed.

If Apple is adamant that they made no mistake, they only reinforce the feeling that Apple has become an inhuman giant, a profit-hunting corporate entity, that doesn't really care about human values — the antithesis of what Apple used to be.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#112

Post by pfg »

interpol_p wrote: post #100
davemel37 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gist of this point is the debate around banning guns from people on the terrorist watch list. One side insists that if they are bad enough to watch, we shouldn't let them buy guns (this is Apples stance that since our arbitrary system linked them, that suddenly makes him guilty.) and the people on the other side, insist that since there is no due process to being added to the terrorist watch list, it is a way to…

Both sides agree with the facts of the case: - Developer used his credit card to enrol in multiple accounts - Developer had same test devices on both accounts - One account engaged in fraud - One account was notified of fraud Apple's request is that the developer make these facts known and have his account reinstated. Because Apple doesn't want to be seen as arbitrarily shutting down developer accounts — they have re…

> They weren't asking the dev to admit to fraud. They were asking him to admit to opening multiple developer accounts and losing control of one. Which both sides acknowledge he did. I'm not sure I understand why the developer thinks this would be an admission of wrongdoing on his part

Just to be clear, the developer would've been happy to do exactly that:

> On Saturday they told me that they are fine with me writing the truth about what happened, and that if I did that, my account would be restored. Saturday night I sent a blog post draft to Apple and have since waited for their approval.

However ...

> Tonight Apple decided to accuse me of manipulating the App Store in public via a spokesperson.

Apple's press release does not make any mention of the fact that the fraudulent reviews were for apps from a different (linked) developer account. They also say that they gave multiple warnings prior to removing the app. The developer's blog post and his recording shows this only to be true for the linked account, not his. At the very least, Apple is guilty of lying by omission.

All in all, I think this is very bad form from Apple. They could've simply admitted that their notification system does not present a full picture to developers and fix that, rather than do some weird "we want to make clear we did nothing wrong" dance, and then go out and make misleading statements.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#113

Post by Twisell »

metafunctor wrote: post #111

Apple should change their process so that they contact all linked accounts if it's possible that they would be closed. End of. Kind of. Seems like Apple is working off the assumption that linked accounts are acutely aware of what each other are doing, and thus are all equally responsible for each others actions. Clearly this assumption is not valid. Having listened to the entire call, I think both parties conducted t…

Wether apple is inhuman or the developer is a prick is quite an open question.

Both were faulty and they obviously didn't come to an agreement. Apple phone offer would have gave both of them a clean exit and it might always remain shady why this agrement wasn't actually implemented...

After carefully listening to the phone call I still don't understand why the developers was arguing at all. He could have been back in buisness in a breeze with no harm at all.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#114

Post by andreasley »

Lessons:

  - Apple considers Developer Program memberships "linked to the same entity" if they are paid for by the same credit card.
  - If one of these accounts violates rules, all accounts of this entity are being closed.
  - As always, it's difficult to get any useful information from Apple.
  - Apple will listen and try to find a reasonable solution – at least if the public backlash is big enough.
In my opinion, Apple should communicate this more clearly and, upon closing an account, provide all relevant information to the membership holders as well as providing a means of appeal. Mistakes do happen.

I welcome Apple's crackdown on fradulent activity. However, as an iOS developer, stories like these are the reason why I don't want to bet my livelihood on distributing apps through the App Store. While the risk of having my app rejected or account closed for no particular reason is small, it's still there. Are developer's voices being heard, even if they don't have a blog and a twitter account? My experience with Apple's Bug Reporter says no.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#115

Post by metafunctor »

Twisell wrote: post #113
metafunctor wrote: post #111

Apple should change their process so that they contact all linked accounts if it's possible that they would be closed. End of. Kind of. Seems like Apple is working off the assumption that linked accounts are acutely aware of what each other are doing, and thus are all equally responsible for each others actions. Clearly this assumption is not valid. Having listened to the entire call, I think both parties conducted t…

Wether apple is inhuman or the developer is a prick is quite an open question. Both were faulty and they obviously didn't come to an agreement. Apple phone offer would have gave both of them a clean exit and it might always remain shady why this agrement wasn't actually implemented... After carefully listening to the phone call I still don't understand why the developers was arguing at all. He could have been back in…

Both Apple and the developer made mistakes. That much is clear.

Apple, being a big corporation, is inhuman if they do not admit their mistakes.

The developer, being a human, is a prick if he doesn't admit his mistakes.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#116

Post by Mandatum »

How to get an app banned from the app store:

Spend $5000 at Fiverr or similar on bogus reviews.

.. There are no more steps.

This also works with SEO. You can spend under $100 at Fiverr for thousands of backlinks, get your website flagged by Google and the website needs to manually remove those backlinks in their console (which takes days, if not weeks to track down the flagged links).

Rinse and repeat on your competitor once a month to ruin their online presence.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#117

Post by Mithaldu »

andreasley wrote: post #114

Lessons: - Apple considers Developer Program memberships "linked to the same entity" if they are paid for by the same credit card. - If one of these accounts violates rules, all accounts of this entity are being closed. - As always, it's difficult to get any useful information from Apple. - Apple will listen and try to find a reasonable solution – at least if the public backlash is big enough. In my opinion, Apple sh…

Not only credit cards. Hardware can link accounts too, so be very careful whom you gift or sell your old computers to.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#118

Post by pfg »

Twisell wrote: post #113
metafunctor wrote: post #111

Apple should change their process so that they contact all linked accounts if it's possible that they would be closed. End of. Kind of. Seems like Apple is working off the assumption that linked accounts are acutely aware of what each other are doing, and thus are all equally responsible for each others actions. Clearly this assumption is not valid. Having listened to the entire call, I think both parties conducted t…

Wether apple is inhuman or the developer is a prick is quite an open question. Both were faulty and they obviously didn't come to an agreement. Apple phone offer would have gave both of them a clean exit and it might always remain shady why this agrement wasn't actually implemented... After carefully listening to the phone call I still don't understand why the developers was arguing at all. He could have been back in…

> Both were faulty and they obviously didn't come to an agreement.

I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion. The developer offered to publish a blog post saying that the app was removed due to fraudulent activity on a linked account he was not aware of. Apple accepted and then went ahead and published a statement accusing him of engaging in fraudulent behaviour anyway, claiming they gave plenty of warning, but not mentioning that the activity was limited to the non-Dash account, that the developer claims to have been unaware of the connection, and that they did not inform him of the connection or give any warning on this account. That's just dishonest.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#119

Post by vsl »

metrognome wrote: post #45
Mithaldu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple representative states there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side. Absent any wrongdoing on his side the termination is in error. Additionally they made the error of not contacting the holders of all accounts involved.

The Apple representative also stated that the accounts were the same legal entity (due to the accounts being based on the same bank account). I don't think it's necessarily an error for them not to contact all involved accounts if they share something as private as a bank account.

It’s also possible he misspoke and was referring to the credit or debit card (and thus the account it was for) used to open the dev account.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#120

Post by vsl »

Spooky23 wrote: post #50
jbob2000 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did we read the same article? He used his credit card to pay for a friend's developer account and gave her one of his old devices to test on. Though he didn't mention it (sticking to facts) it looks like he was teaching someone how to make an iOS app and provided a bit of charity.

...and mysteriously, this friend spontaneously began posting fraudulent reviews relating to this guy's app? Sounds like bullshit to me.

Now, on the friend’s (relative, actually) apps. She continued to use the account, published 20-odd crappy apps and paid for fake reviews for these apps.
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