Dash developer's response to Apple's response • Hacker News Board

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#21

Post by wvenable » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:05 AM UTC

Reason077 wrote: post #15

Mithaldu wrote: post #5

After listening to the first 2 minutes of the call, i can say with absolute confidence that Apple is straight-up blackmailing him.* I would love to hear opinions on whether this is something that could be taken to court. * They did make a mistake in not verifying whether the second account activity was actually done by Kapeli, yet they want him to claim they made no mistake, otherwise they won't reinstate Dash.

I think Apple's position is reasonable here. A second developer account, which is the account linked to fraudulent reviews, was opened using the same credit card, same bank account, and same test devices as the main Kapeli account. So it's reasonable that they would assume the same person was in control of both accounts. The developer claims this is not the case, however. Apple seems willing to accept that. All they…

Apple is reasonable but they should probably change their policy to notify all "linked" accounts when one of these accounts might end up being responsible for closing them all.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#22

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:06 AM UTC

Mithaldu wrote: post #5

After listening to the first 2 minutes of the call, i can say with absolute confidence that Apple is straight-up blackmailing him.* I would love to hear opinions on whether this is something that could be taken to court. * They did make a mistake in not verifying whether the second account activity was actually done by Kapeli, yet they want him to claim they made no mistake, otherwise they won't reinstate Dash.

Apple's not blackmailing him. That's ridiculous. Apple was entirely within its rights to suspend the account. Apple's offering the developer an easy way to get his account back that doesn't even require buying a new one.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#23

Post by rhapsodic » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:06 AM UTC

After listening to the call recording, I can't see how Apple was being all that unreasonable with the guy.

I suspect that his recording and posting audio of that call is going to blow up in his face. Especially if he broke any laws by doing it.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#24

Post by Mithaldu » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:07 AM UTC

joshdickson wrote: post #17

Mithaldu wrote: post #5

After listening to the first 2 minutes of the call, i can say with absolute confidence that Apple is straight-up blackmailing him.* I would love to hear opinions on whether this is something that could be taken to court. * They did make a mistake in not verifying whether the second account activity was actually done by Kapeli, yet they want him to claim they made no mistake, otherwise they won't reinstate Dash.

No, there is absolutely no legal case here whatsoever. Apple's developer program terms grant them virtually unbridled power to do whatever they want with your developer account no matter how fair or how unfair. You have no legal right to have a developer account. Normal business contractual negotiations (as these are) are not blackmail.

Alright. I can go along with it not being blackmail from a legal perspective.

Morally it absolutely does remain blackmail.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#25

Post by madeofpalk » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:07 AM UTC

joshdickson wrote: post #17

Mithaldu wrote: post #5

After listening to the first 2 minutes of the call, i can say with absolute confidence that Apple is straight-up blackmailing him.* I would love to hear opinions on whether this is something that could be taken to court. * They did make a mistake in not verifying whether the second account activity was actually done by Kapeli, yet they want him to claim they made no mistake, otherwise they won't reinstate Dash.

No, there is absolutely no legal case here whatsoever. Apple's developer program terms grant them virtually unbridled power to do whatever they want with your developer account no matter how fair or how unfair. You have no legal right to have a developer account. Normal business contractual negotiations (as these are) are not blackmail.

I thought it's been proven that terms of service can't override or be a substitute for like... other laws. It's possible to find the terms of service invalid.

Apple's warranty policy that users 'agree with' has been over turned in many many countries.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#26

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:08 AM UTC

Mithaldu wrote: post #20

Reason077 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Apple's position is reasonable here. A second developer account, which is the account linked to fraudulent reviews, was opened using the same credit card, same bank account, and same test devices as the main Kapeli account. So it's reasonable that they would assume the same person was in control of both accounts. The developer claims this is not the case, however. Apple seems willing to accept that. All they…

The unreasonable parts are: - Apple assumed, and let these assumptions stay untested, and particularly failed to reach out to the different contact details on all involved accounts. - Apple admits they terminated his account in error, yet blackmail him in refusing to reinstate unless he makes a blog post. (Actual contents of the post irrelevant to the point at hand.)

Where did they say they terminated his account in error? On the recorded call they made it very clear that the accounts were linked and that Apple believes that to be accurate. The fact that they're willing to provide Kapeli with a way to get his account unlinked and reinstated does not mean they were incorrect in the first place.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#27

Post by Mithaldu » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:09 AM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #18

mmerickel wrote: post #12

After listening to the call it does seem like Apple didn't do due diligence and notify all parties involved. They notified the owner of the dev account, but not the owner of each account that was going to be deactivated. Doing this could have prevented the misunderstanding.

I'm sure there was much more communication than just that call. Apple, in a previous statement, said "Warning was given in advance of the termination and attempts were made to resolve the issue with the developer but they were unsuccessful"

Listen to the phone call. He asks them why they contacted only the owner of the linked account and not the details on his account before closing his account, and Apple does not deny they failed to contact him and only says "cause they were linked".

There was no other communication with Kapeli.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#28

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:09 AM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #19

This is the first I've ever heard of the concept of "linked" Apple developer accounts. I suspect most people won't come across this particular issue but it's just another fun app store concept.

It's a fun concept when dealing with any kind of anti-fraud measures. I highly doubt the App Store is the only place where accounts can be considered linked.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#29

Post by hydrogen18 » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:10 AM UTC

fruchtose wrote: post #13

itg wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The audio didn't start from the beginning so it is hard to say if they notified that they were recording, but in California, all parties must consent if one wants to record a phone call. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws#Uni...

Since the dev behind Dash is based in Romania[1], is this law still applicable? [1] https://blog.kapeli.com/about

Only if you can get a Romanian judge to extradite him to California.

Re: Dash developer's response to Apple's response

#30

Post by jbob2000 » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 12:10 AM UTC

nihonde wrote: post #4

Eh? It's very vague in the blog post, but it sounds like the developer paid for an Apple account and the device which were used to create fraudulent reviews. That last looks quite bad and makes Apple's position more understandable. Why isn't the developer explaining what happened with the dev account that they opened and funded? You can't just say "I haven't done anything wrong" under those circumstances without expl…

Did we read the same article? He used his credit card to pay for a friend's developer account and gave her one of his old devices to test on. Though he didn't mention it (sticking to facts) it looks like he was teaching someone how to make an iOS app and provided a bit of charity.