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Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

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Re: Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

#71
post #6
post #2

Well that's definitely strange. Why would the developer do such a thing when Dash is basically the best app of its kind out there? Edit: To other commenters, why would Apple accuse the dev of faking reviews if it wasn't true? I don't see Apple getting anything out of it.

As one of the other commenters, I wasn't suggesting that Apple is purposefully accusing innocent developers as part of a nefarious plot; I was suggesting that they might be mistaken, and obliquely hinting that it would be nice if they'd respond to the controversy with actual proof , as the article title (apparently falsely?) claimed they had. > I don't see Apple getting anything out of it. Refusing to admit innocent…

I was suggesting that they might be mistaken, and obliquely hinting that it would be nice if they'd respond to the controversy with actual proof

They'll never provide proof for the same reason that Google won't publicize the exact parameters behind search; it would provide bad actors with information on how to game their system.

Re: Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

#72
post #61

The Dash developer posted his side of the story including a recorded call with Apple: https://blog.kapeli.com/dash-and-apple-my-side-of-the-story

What I've done: 3-4 years ago I helped a relative get started by paying for her Apple's Developer Program Membership using my credit card. I also handded her test hardware that I no longer needed. From then on those accounts were linked in the eyes of Apple. Once that account was involved with review manipulation, my account was closed.

I was not aware my account was linked to another until Apple contacted me Friday, 2 days after closing my account. I was never notified of any kind of wrongdoing before my account was terminated.

Re: Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

#73

Having dealt with nefarious characters in a pretty active community that was quick to defend their own members (even when they were being very naughty) I'll give my guess as to what's happened, basically assuming good faith in Apple, mainly to counter a lot of the questions here around "what if a competitor bought these..." In cases where Apple is this certain (or seemingly certain) they usually have a smoking gun. T…

I think the difficult part is correctly attributing the behavior to the correct party. My knee jerk reaction to this article, is that if I were nefarious and I wanted to get a competitor off the appstore, than I would game the review system on their behalf. I didn't look at it too closely, but I think part of it they said was also creating negative reviews for competitors. Like you said, it depends on the smoking gun…

Yep. I look at it this way: Apple has a team, or teams, dedicated to detecting and stopping fraudulent behavior. People on these teams are very smart and are likely using very sophisticated methods for detecting fraudulent behavior and attributing it, and they are very sensitive to false positives.

It's likely better to take no action than to take action, so when you take action, it is only when there is a very strong positive signal.

Again, I'm making assumptions because this is how the work I did went. There are a lot of things that can be done before dropping an app from the store entirely, and Apple is incentivized to keep the apps in the store – they get paid when people buy them, so removing them is a last straw.

Re: Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

#74
post #17

So if I want to remove a competing app from the app store, all I have to do is buy them a bunch of fake reviews and Apple will ban them?

Reviews require purchase, though. So for paid apps, it's much harder to do as a third party because you'll pay full price, whereas the developer gets back 70% of what they pay.

Although I have no idea how you'd create dozens of accounts with independent payment methods without it becoming suspicious. I guess you can use gift cards anonymously but that's almost certain to trigger even the most basic anomaly detection.

Re: Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

#75
Sigh. Apple comes off very poorly when you listen to that audio recording. The rep on the phone seems clueless that he is possibly causing more damage with this posture than would've happened had they just explained their side of the story and re-enabled the account.

Apple should have just told us that the account was linked to a fraudulent account so they were correct to pull the plug quickly to prevent add'l harm, and that on further review it was clear that the relationship between the accounts was not as close as the facts initially suggested. That would seem entirely reasonable to me.

That said, by not notifying both accounts it seems that problems like this are totally foreseeable. It also suggests that if a malicious actor was able to get a developer's credit card he would have a fair shot at getting an app delisted.

Re: Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

#76
post #68

Can anyone who bought Dash confirm or deny that you can still access it from the "purchased" tab in the app store? This used to be the behavior for paid apps that were delisted† and I assume it still is. † I remember it happening for the game Edge when it was taken down due to trademark trolling. It was later reinstated.

No, it's gone.

Re: Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

#77
In telling the other side of the story, the Dash developer published his (apparently secret) recording of a 7-minute long telephone call he had with a person at Apple who purports to be speaking on behalf of Phil Schiller.[1]

Leaving aside whatever inferences might be drawn from the fact that the developer saw fit to record and publish the recording in the first place, here's a brief summary of what was said:

- There was at least one other developer account "linked" to the Dash developer account. In this context, "linked" means that the accounts "shared the same details": they were enrolled in the Apple Developer Program "with the same credit card number", and "used the same test devices".

- Apple says that at least one of those other developer accounts "definitely had fraudulent activity": "It was not your direct account but it was a linked account." Warnings about fraudulent activity were sent to the linked account. No warnings were sent to the Dash account.

- The Dash developer asked: "Why didn't you notify me beforehand though, and let me know that an account that's linked to mine is doing fraudulent activity, so I can do something about it?" The answer is "because they were linked"; "we see them as the same entity". "If we have accounts that have enrolled in our program using the same credit card, they are the same legal entity; they are the same." So Apple believed they had notified the Dash developer because Apple believed the same person was behind the linked accounts. (Prudence would dictate notifying all accounts at risk of termination; we'll see what happens in future.)

- Apple's position is that no mistakes were made. The Dash developer account was linked to an account with fraudulent activity based on the facts known to Apple.

- The Dash developer says (in his blog post) that he "helped a relative get started by paying for her Apple's Developer Program Membership using my credit card" and "handed her test hardware that I no longer needed".

- Apple says they are "working with" the Dash developer to "unlink the accounts", which (I speculate) may involve some attempt to verify the Dash developer's claim that the linked account was used only by a relative and not by him. If the accounts are unlinked, there would be no reason for the Dash account to remain closed.

[1] https://blog.kapeli.com/dash-and-apple-my-side-of-the-story

Re: Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately The Loop isn't much of a news site, more of a controlled Apple leak blog. Dalrymple has gotten to the point of being a complete Apple shill. Edit: Compare the tone of the Loop article to Daring Fireballs: http://daringfireball.net/2016/10/apple_dash_controversy Gruber takes a much more unbiased approach, supported well. The Loop article reads like a statement from the Principal read by your teacher.

And here's Kapeli's explanation of what happened: https://blog.kapeli.com/dash-and-apple-my-side-of-the-story !!! it includes a recording of a phone call with Apple !!! Edit: After listening to the first 2 minutes of the call, i can say with absolute confidence that Apple is straight-up blackmailing him. I would love to hear opinions on whether this is something that could be taken to court. Here's the HN submission…

wiretapping apple? yeah, good move.

Re: Apple Responds to Dash Controversy

#80
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately The Loop isn't much of a news site, more of a controlled Apple leak blog. Dalrymple has gotten to the point of being a complete Apple shill. Edit: Compare the tone of the Loop article to Daring Fireballs: http://daringfireball.net/2016/10/apple_dash_controversy Gruber takes a much more unbiased approach, supported well. The Loop article reads like a statement from the Principal read by your teacher.

Translation: he likes Apple products and is open about it, whereas I don't.

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