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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

99percentinvisible.org

521–530 of 612 posts

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the non-assertive position isn't 'playing it safe'. You're no more out of the flow of traffic unless the lane is extra wide, you're signalling to following cars that they are welcome to overtake, and you have robbed yourself of any margin for error when a car misjudges their pass and squeezes you in to a parked car or railing. You're right that the assertive approach is no substitute for segregated…

Interesting. Here in NL we're taught to stay to the right hand side of the lane with about .5 meters of margin to the right relative to where the road surface ends. That way cars can overtake without possibly hitting a cyclist going the other way. Also it is strongly discouraged to cycle side-by side (but kids on the way to and from school routinely ignore that as do couples of all ages). https://fietsmaar.files.word…

Your road design, markings, and customs are completely different.

In the US, a "bike lane" is a completely separate lane that cars are not supposed to drive in. Unfortunately they're usually retrofitted onto a road, making all the other lanes narrower. This exacerbates the standard situation:

Most roads have a double yellow line down the middle, and drivers are taught to never cross this. The general width of the standard lane is around enough for a larger vehicle and a bike to stand side-by-side, but not enough for comfortable passing. The lowest US traffic speed (outside of neighborhoods) is usually 35 mph (56kph), with the basic non-highway speed being around 40-45 mph (64-72 kph).

Most drivers, especially outside cities, expect that they will always be able to pass a bike regardless of any oncoming traffic. Drivers usually pass bikes by moving over a little and continuing at speed - the "good" ones will put their left tires a foot or two over the double yellow line, or possibly slow down to 70% of their speed if oncoming traffic. If the cyclist is in a bike lane or shoulder, the expectation is that a car does not have to account for them at all, since it's the bike's responsibility to continue out of the car's lane.

In the US context, I agree with the "take the lane" advice wholeheartedly. It makes cars have to account for you, and leaves your clear-lane buffer to your right where you can rely on it (as opposed to thinking its on your left, and suddenly swerving left due to damage, debris, or door). A driver yelling at you because they had to slow down and plan to deliberately pass you is much better than that same driver passing a foot away at full speed. And if a driver does plow into you from behind, they would have done the same thing had you been a few feet more to the right (unless you are actually riding on the shoulder, which is the general approach in rural areas where speeds are even higher and longer distances mean people space out more).

It was actually difficult finding a representative picture, since there are so many distinct types of area in the US. As you go into more planned areas, the neighborhoods become nicer (meant for mixed use), but the arteries become even worse and using them is necessary to go anywhere.

Standard less-planned suburban area: http://i.gettysburgdaily.com/imgs/LongLane060809/LongLane060... (It even has a shiny sidewalk! I bet it abruptly ends up ahead where the road curves)

Slightly denser suburban area (the parked cars): https://www.arlnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ik-009_825...

Suburban artery that has had its shoulder painted with a picture of a bike - http://rrcoplanning.ppaponline.org/NeighborhoodImages/RiverR...

What most US drivers perceive: http://www.vaterrarc.com/Content/Images/Products/landing/bg_...

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comments suggest someone who doesn't do a lot of cycling in traffic. Correct me if I'm wrong. You say that young or old cyclists will get 'clobbered' - what do you mean by this? That a car approaching from the rear will see them riding assertively and simply plow in to them? If not that then what? That the cars will pass them closely as they are forced to move further in to the other lane? If that's your asserti…

> Your comments suggest someone who doesn't do a lot of cycling in traffic. If that's what you got out of it then you're entirely wrong. I cycle a few thousand Km / year. > Correct me if I'm wrong. You say that young or old cyclists will get 'clobbered' - what do you mean by this? That the only way in which you can keep cyclists - of all ages - safe is by separating the various traffic streams. By forcible mixing the…

> > If that's your assertion then as others have stated, an assertive lane position is exactly what will save you in this situation - as you have the room on the inside to avoid the passing car.

> Well, in that case you didn't need to take up more room than you needed in the first place...

Are you seriously suggesting that rather than have a few-foot safety margin to their right, a cyclist should simply ride entirely in that space because they don't "need" it most of the time?

What happens then when you do "need" it?

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's pretty unrealistic, until we get car sharing and autonomous taxis and the like to a point where there just isn't a need for street parking.

We have had subways, buses, and trolleys for 100 years or more. That's car sharing at scale.

Then why are people still using cars? My guess: public transportation is too slow (e.g. having to stop every couple blocks) and not granular enough (have to walk to stop, have to wait). Also it is often unpleasant, being crammed in with so many.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the non-assertive position isn't 'playing it safe'. You're no more out of the flow of traffic unless the lane is extra wide, you're signalling to following cars that they are welcome to overtake, and you have robbed yourself of any margin for error when a car misjudges their pass and squeezes you in to a parked car or railing. You're right that the assertive approach is no substitute for segregated…

Interesting. Here in NL we're taught to stay to the right hand side of the lane with about .5 meters of margin to the right relative to where the road surface ends. That way cars can overtake without possibly hitting a cyclist going the other way. Also it is strongly discouraged to cycle side-by side (but kids on the way to and from school routinely ignore that as do couples of all ages). https://fietsmaar.files.word…

> Interesting. Here in NL we're taught to stay to the right hand side of the lane with about .5 meters of margin to the right relative to where the road surface ends.

Here in the US, we're taught to claim the lane. As I said earlier in the thread, I have tried both. The difference between the two is utterly unmistakable.

That said, you're right (again earlier in the thread) that I'm young and healthy and able to more or less keep up with city traffic. However, I did caveat my statement with the assertion that if you are causing a backup (due to traffic, no extra lane, or whatever), you should exercise courtesy and allow traffic to pass.

I'm not arguing at all that a cyclist going a leisurely 10mph on a two-lane, 45mph road should claim the lane and sit there oblivious to their surroundings. But even if they do, this cyclist is going to be (in my experience) far safer than if they were on the side of the road getting buzzed with a 35+mph difference between then and car traffic.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#525
post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. For me, it's pretty much: I don't ski much these days. I don't ski particularly aggressively. I've never worn a helmet and I'm not about to start now. It's not that I think they're stupid or anything. And I do wear helmets for various other sports. I just never have for skiing and don't feel compelled to change.

But that's what the Natasha Richardson accident proved - it's not about your skiing, it's about other people's skiing. In much the same way as you wear a seatbelt even if you're a perfect driver - someone else can still crash into you. Also, the fact that I've never had a potentially fatal car accident doesn't mean that I don't see the need to wear a seatbelt. The safety numbers made a risk obvious and the behavioura…

I'm certainly not going to argue that people shouldn't wear helmets or that you can control all the factors that could lead to being glad you had a helmet on.

But there's risk in everything and, for me, I'm not going to worry about the incremental risk of downhill skiing without a helmet a couple days a year.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#526
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you still have to pedal forward in order for the chainset to actuate the gear change?

You just push off with your foot from the ground, giving you enough forward motion to down shift. It's easier if you downshift before stopping, but the only time it's a problem is if climbing a hill, in which case you probably downshifted anyway

Ah, I see what you're saying--the good old forward kick from standstill.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#527
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No its not you can down shift with index shifters on the MTB very easily as you stop and you can always lift the back when and quickly shift that way Agree that fixies should be banned outside of a race track.

How about until such a time that society can provide a safe means of cycling, we let cyclists decide how they are most capable of staying alive. Riding a slow bicycle and stopping at every intersection is incredibly unsafe in many American cities. Yeah, a fixed gear can be an encumberence to a poser, but to someone qualified, it can also be a means of greater control.

> Riding a slow bicycle and stopping at every intersection is incredibly unsafe in many American cities.

I don't think blowing through red lights at or near full speed is any safer. Come on, at least do a California roll.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#528
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, Dutch view this two ways to use bicycle very differently. There are even completely different verbs to describe that: - fietsen i.e. literally "bicycling" would refer to riding an opafiets [1] bicycle, at moderate speed, without helmet or any sort of cycling attire; - wielrennen , i.e. literally "wheel running" instead describes sort of cycling that you would see in Tour de France race - racing bike, helmet,…

While I get the difference, I can't quite imagine how it works in practice. Here in Germany, it's all radeln , and when I commute along the ordinary bike lanes, I usually go as fast as I can, which is something like 20-30km/hour. That's nothing like racing, but it not moderate and so I am overtaking more casual cyclists all the time. As far as I know, people who ride like me or faster are not frowned upon here. We ar…

I'm telling you, it's not the speed, it's the outfit and the bike. I don't suddenly ride faster just because I'm wearing a helmet and goggles, but other people's attitude is sudden;y totally different.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there are separated roads for bikes and cars we do still share roadspace. The major difference I think is that in the Netherlands there is a law which gives vulnerable road participants (pedestrians, bicycler) the benefit of the doubt whenever there is an accident. Even if the guilt is proven to be with the bicycler, the car driver should have paid more attention. One way this is good for bicyclers because t…

The major difference I think is that in the Netherlands there is a law which gives vulnerable road participants (pedestrians, bicycler) the benefit of the doubt whenever there is an accident. Even if the guilt is proven to be with the bicycler, the car driver should have paid more attention. As far as I know, this is also true in Germany and many people wear helmets. I never wore a helmet in The Netherlands, but I do…

Pretty much the same for me here in the US. I grew up in the Netherlands and always felt safe bicycling there. The first time I went bicycling around San Jose, I felt like I was going to die.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#530
post #239

Bullshit. I'm Dutch, never heard of or exercised this "Dutch Reach" behaviour and I was not tested for it when getting my driver's license. Instead, you just look around and in your mirrors to see if other traffic is coming before blindly and like an asshole opening your door, it doesn't matter how you open the door after you became aware of what is going on around you. I call this behaviour the "Dutch Common Sense".

No apparently people teach that you open the door, stick your face out in front of the oncoming bike instead. Or try squint past the door pillar and the headrest?

I really like my door not to have dents, scratches and blood all over it (especially mine) so I look in the already-optimally-positioned mirror on the outside of the door where my hand goes to check if there is some other vehicle coming first before I open the door.

And I am not even Dutch.

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