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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

99percentinvisible.org

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Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#251

Post by speleding »

deanclatworthy wrote: post #155
tluyben2 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Good or bad; I am Dutch and I would confidently say that all people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets. More likely if it would be mandatory, they just would refuse and not do it, but if largely enforced they would just not use bikes anymore.

Odd that you say this about helmets. It only takes one mistake, one cyclist not paying attention, one mechanical fault, one swerving car or an obstacle in the road - and you'll be landing face first into the tarmac wishing you wore a helmet. 185 cyclists died last year in the Netherlands [1]. I wonder how many of those weren't wearing a helmet. I also found this interesting article [2] going into a lot more detail on…

Wearing a helmet in your car would prevent a lot of injuries as well, and nobody does that. This is just a risk/reward trade off and I (as a Dutch cyclist) feel a few additional deaths on the total population is not worth the effort.

And the things are uncomfortable and impractical: what are you going to do with it when you arrive on your destination? Lug it around all day? Bring a bag everywhere?

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#252

Post by TulliusCicero »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #235
mooneater wrote: post #164

Great, a solution that boils down to "bikers can be safe from just one of many mortal dangers, if and only if every single driver learns this new habit and does it right every time". I want solutions in which safety doesn't depend on perfect behaviour from people at minimal risk (drivers), like physical separation of lanes.

The only real thing then is to ban bicycles. or cars. Both parties need to learn to co-operate, because while separated lanes will help improve safety, the fact remains that the two will always need to share roads, just like pedestrians do in many ways (think crossings)

Yes, but you can drastically decrease the danger through infrastructure like physically separated lanes and protected intersections.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#253

Post by scottishfiction »

jacquesm wrote: post #135
stouset wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, that's the theory. But in practice some drivers will see it as an aggressive move to take 'their' lane. Having commuted by bicycle for almost a decade, this is the theory. In practice, if you take the lane, virtually every driver will simply move over one lane to pass. Some consideration needs to be taken, of course — if doing this is causing traffic behind you, you should move over and let cars pass (or bike…

You are likely young and able to keep up with traffic. But not everybody is young and able to keep up with traffic. Older people will cycle slower (and are far more vulnerable if they should fall or get into an accident), and kids are going to get clobbered if they should occupy whole lanes. Keep in mind that any advice that you give for a class of traffic should apply equally to all members of that class, not just t…

Your comments suggest someone who doesn't do a lot of cycling in traffic. Correct me if I'm wrong. You say that young or old cyclists will get 'clobbered' - what do you mean by this? That a car approaching from the rear will see them riding assertively and simply plow in to them? If not that then what? That the cars will pass them closely as they are forced to move further in to the other lane? If that's your assertion then as others have stated, an assertive lane position is exactly what will save you in this situation - as you have the room on the inside to avoid the passing car.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#254

Post by mpol »

CorbenDallas wrote: post #157

Amsterdam resident here. Such a good infrastructure and laws for the bycyclists make them not giving a single shit about the way they are actually driving their bycicles. And their behaviour and driving style is often very offensive to both pedestrians and car users. So it's not that straight and black and white.

That is mostly just Amsterdam. In the rest of the Netherlands this behaviour is being frowned upon.

And it is often not the Dutch people. Half the people in Amsterdam is tourists.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#255

Post by gambiting »

Is it just me, or is the cyclist in this gif(from the article):

http://99percentinvisible.org/app/uploads/2016/09/doorzone.g...

Cycling way too fast on a narrow lane like this?

I'm not saying that he's at fault, obviously the fault is 100% on the side of whoever opened the door, but if I was driving 60mph next to a lane of standing traffic, that would be completely irresponsible, because if someone pulled out into my lane the accident would be severe. Driving in cities requires caution, but I notice that cyclists cycle as if they are alone on the road, zooming at 30mph past standing traffic.

I'm not guilt-free, I used to cycle ~2000 miles a year in a large city and a I did my share of stupid irresponsible stuff on a bike, but I think both sides need a bit of education on how to be safe on the road.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#256

Post by jacquesm »

scottishfiction wrote: post #253
jacquesm wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are likely young and able to keep up with traffic. But not everybody is young and able to keep up with traffic. Older people will cycle slower (and are far more vulnerable if they should fall or get into an accident), and kids are going to get clobbered if they should occupy whole lanes. Keep in mind that any advice that you give for a class of traffic should apply equally to all members of that class, not just t…

Your comments suggest someone who doesn't do a lot of cycling in traffic. Correct me if I'm wrong. You say that young or old cyclists will get 'clobbered' - what do you mean by this? That a car approaching from the rear will see them riding assertively and simply plow in to them? If not that then what? That the cars will pass them closely as they are forced to move further in to the other lane? If that's your asserti…

> Your comments suggest someone who doesn't do a lot of cycling in traffic.

If that's what you got out of it then you're entirely wrong. I cycle a few thousand Km / year.

> Correct me if I'm wrong. You say that young or old cyclists will get 'clobbered' - what do you mean by this?

That the only way in which you can keep cyclists - of all ages - safe is by separating the various traffic streams. By forcible mixing them you are simply asking for trouble.

I'm trying hard to imagine Amsterdam cycling traffic without the separation of low speed and high speed traffic into different lanes and with people cycling like suggested above. The carnage would be terrible.

> That a car approaching from the rear will see them riding assertively and simply plow in to them?

Accidents are called accidents for a reason. That car approaching them from behind may not see them at all due to some momentary distraction. You can attempt to make yourself 'large' and 'visible' but you may still be missed and given the relative difference in strength and weight the outcome is predictable. The best way to stay safe as a cyclist is to stay out of the way of faster and heavy traffic.

> That the cars will pass them closely as they are forced to move further in to the other lane?

There may not even be another lane. And a fairly large number of motorists will not see that as a huge obstacle in trying to pass a cyclist that occupies a whole lane.

> If that's your assertion then as others have stated, an assertive lane position is exactly what will save you in this situation - as you have the room on the inside to avoid the passing car.

Well, in that case you didn't need to take up more room than you needed in the first place...

It's kind of weird how all this seems to center around having a 'safe' place to go to in case the assertive driving ('brave' was the word, why is it considered 'brave' if all it is is safe?) policy fails.

Better to recognize your fragility and play it safe from the get go.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#257

Post by awjr »

One thing to consider is that the Netherlands is also considered the best place to drive in the world. Being pro-bicycle removes a significant number of short car journeys from the road. http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/best-place-in-the-world-to-be...

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#258

Post by Angostura »

tluyben2 wrote: post #136
djsumdog wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of bicycles in The Netherlands is absolutely surreal. Both in major cities and out in the suburbs, bicycles are everywhere. I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Large cities in Germany or the UK or anywhere else I've seen cannot compare to the magnitude of people on bicycles in The Netherlands.

> I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Good or bad; I am Dutch and I would confidently say that all people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets. More likely if it would be mandatory, they just would refuse and not do it, but if largely enforced they would just not use bikes anymore.

I'm strongly against mandatory helmets for the reason that you suggest. But I'm one of the people (Im in the UK) who now wears helmets for both skiing and cycling. My cycle helmet almost certainly saved my life when a car gave me a knock and my head went onto the kerb.

This was a slow collision in London traffic - probably doing about 10-12 MPh.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#259

Post by arve0 »

speleding wrote: post #251
deanclatworthy wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odd that you say this about helmets. It only takes one mistake, one cyclist not paying attention, one mechanical fault, one swerving car or an obstacle in the road - and you'll be landing face first into the tarmac wishing you wore a helmet. 185 cyclists died last year in the Netherlands [1]. I wonder how many of those weren't wearing a helmet. I also found this interesting article [2] going into a lot more detail on…

Wearing a helmet in your car would prevent a lot of injuries as well, and nobody does that. This is just a risk/reward trade off and I (as a Dutch cyclist) feel a few additional deaths on the total population is not worth the effort. And the things are uncomfortable and impractical: what are you going to do with it when you arrive on your destination? Lug it around all day? Bring a bag everywhere?

Or hang it on the bicycle?
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