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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

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Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#181

Post by Symbiote »

deanclatworthy wrote: post #165
mafribe wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typical bicyle helmets don't help much with a face-first landing on the tarmac, your chin takes most of the pounding. I can confidently say that from repeated ... 'experiments'. In contrast, a motorcyle helmet that also wraps around the chin would be of great use in most bicycle accidents. 185 cyclists died A more interesting statistic would be: how many of those deaths would have been prevented by a bicycle helmet?

That depends entirely on how you fall off your bike, which depends on your speed and numerous other factors. The problem here is that it's pretty hard to tell after the fact whether a death would have been prevented by a helmet. We can guess, speculate but it's hard to measure the exact forces exerted - and also how someone's biological material will react to that (the brain). In all my reading around this issue, tho…

> I'd rather live to see the next day than care about what a helmet looks like.

Do you wear one while walking? Or hiking? There's also an increased risk of brain injury from these activities.

Most people I know don't wear one, because the combination of the discomfort, hassle, inconvenience and appearance aren't worth the perceived low increased risk of cycling compared to, for example, walking.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#182

Post by jdietrich »

jacquesm wrote: post #76
jdietrich wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Local governments have been kind enough to paint warning marks for cyclists, advising them of the safe distance from parked cars and kerbs. Non-cyclists call these warning marks "bike lanes". Cyclists need at least a metre of space on the nearside at all times. It's your escape route if cars pass too closely. It's your protective buffer against being doored or against pedestrians stepping out into your path. Hugging…

> Be brave and take the lane. If you delay other road users, let them honk and shout - that metre of space is literally a matter of life and death. In a country that already respects cyclists this may work. In a country that does not it will likely get you to wake up in the infirmary (assuming you wake up at all) after being hit by someone in a hurry that assumed you were going to give their 2 ton vehicle the room it…

Taking the lane is precisely what allows you to make room for motorists. If a motorist makes a close pass when you've taken the lane, you just steer away from them and create some space. If a motorist makes a close pass when you're already hugging the kerb, you have nowhere to go. The best case scenario is that you'll crash into something without too many sharp edges.

Taking the lane doesn't mean acting as an immovable roadblock, it means using the full width of the lane to your advantage. You take the primary position in the centre of the lane by default. When you need to make space, you retreat to a secondary position closer to the kerb. As soon as it is safe to do so, you return to the primary position.

Unless you create the space you need, your safety is in the lap of the gods. A pothole, a piece of debris, a stray dog, an inattentive driver - if you're wedged in between the kerb and passing traffic, all you can do is slam on the brakes and pray. If you've created your own space, you have options.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#183

Post by lamontcg »

Qantourisc wrote: post #146

In Belgium we don't have a word for doored either. But we don't use our right hand, we are just learned to look and make sure we are not going to smack someone of their bike. Also often the lane next to you is a car-lane. As such you also learn not to swing open your door wildly, as you might loose your door ;)

Yeah, this isn't just a thing to protect bicyclists, this is also about how to safely exit your vehicle with a lane of traffic next to you. Can't count the number of people over here (USA) that just blindly throw open their door and hope for the best.

I always check, and if I have to open my door with a line of traffic going by (there's some streets around here where traffic going by is literally endless) I open it a crack first, then open it only as much as I need to exit, and do the whole process slowly, and watch the approaching cars the whole time. I can't remember the last time I've ever seen someone else do that though.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#184

Post by cr1895 »

eridius wrote: post #175
et-al wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in China don't wear helmets either. Helmets prevent brain injury, but generally you'd have to be going pretty fast, or get hit by a car really fast to land on your head to require one (and then you probably have other injuries to contend with). Also, we have bike light laws in California, but there are plenty of cyclists that don't use them. Personally, if I had to choose between riding without a helmet,…

It's not hard to be going fast inadvertently. The worst bike accident I was in involved me coming down a hill, stopping at the bottom on what turned out to be an invisible bump, and flying over my handlebars. I broke my collarbone upon landing, but if I hadn't been wearing a helmet it would have been a lot worse. It just seems foolhardy to me to ride a bike without a helmet, like driving a car without a seatbelt.

The Netherlands is famous for its hills ;)

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#185

Post by microtonal »

aequitas wrote: post #167
Arnt wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You learn to appreciate a helmet if you share roadspace with a certain subset of vehicles and drivers. Which you, blessedly, don't.

Although there are separated roads for bikes and cars we do still share roadspace. The major difference I think is that in the Netherlands there is a law which gives vulnerable road participants (pedestrians, bicycler) the benefit of the doubt whenever there is an accident. Even if the guilt is proven to be with the bicycler, the car driver should have paid more attention. One way this is good for bicyclers because t…

The major difference I think is that in the Netherlands there is a law which gives vulnerable road participants (pedestrians, bicycler) the benefit of the doubt whenever there is an accident. Even if the guilt is proven to be with the bicycler, the car driver should have paid more attention.

As far as I know, this is also true in Germany and many people wear helmets. I never wore a helmet in The Netherlands, but I do now that I live in Germany. Why?

- German car drivers are less used to cyclers. They are either extremely careful (like driving behind you for five minutes or passing you with a distance of 2 meters). Or they are extremely reckless (e.g. cutting you off on the very few bicycle lanes). So, in general I feel less safe than in The Netherlands.

- Altitude differences. The Netherlands are mostly flat. Here (southern Germany) it's quite hilly. That often makes it more difficult to brake abruptly.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#186

Post by jacquesm »

jdietrich wrote: post #182
jacquesm wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Be brave and take the lane. If you delay other road users, let them honk and shout - that metre of space is literally a matter of life and death. In a country that already respects cyclists this may work. In a country that does not it will likely get you to wake up in the infirmary (assuming you wake up at all) after being hit by someone in a hurry that assumed you were going to give their 2 ton vehicle the room it…

Taking the lane is precisely what allows you to make room for motorists. If a motorist makes a close pass when you've taken the lane, you just steer away from them and create some space. If a motorist makes a close pass when you're already hugging the kerb, you have nowhere to go. The best case scenario is that you'll crash into something without too many sharp edges. Taking the lane doesn't mean acting as an immovab…

There are more cyclists than young agile males. And your advice only applies to those. I'm trying to imagine a 60 year old lady on a bike applying this advice and fail to see any happy endings. And where I live old ladies on bikes are extremely common. Cycling advice should apply to all cyclists, not just to those giving the advice.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#187

Post by cr1895 »

kvz wrote: post #168
rosege wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other risks though - I always found it odd that motorised scooters are allowed on the bike paths. My Dutch neighbour had a very bad accident when one hit him on his bike and was off work for quite some time.

This is not the case anymore since ~5 years. The only motorized vehicels alllowed are those that cant travel fasher than 25km/h (bike speed)

Nominally they can't go faster than that. But they do.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#188

Post by INTPenis »

It's weird to see this described as a workaround, or a deliberate method, when to me as a swede living in Malmö it's the most natural thing ever.

It's up to drivers, and cab drivers, to warn their passengers to be careful when opening the door. Of course this is an imperfect system but from my perspective it has worked for as long as I've lived.

Swedish traffic law dictates that the one opening the door is responsible for any damages caused, so to protect themselves, their insurance premium and their cars drivers obviously become careful when opening doors.

It messes up your whole daily routine if your door is broken because of a bicycle.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#189

Post by closeparen »

School-Cotton wrote: post #118
BoringCode wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where should the cars park then? Parking is a real issue in large cities and we won't solve it by removing even more spots. Other solutions (which are potentially more expensive) should be looked into before we consider removing street parking.

People shouldn't be trying to drive and park in major city centers. Exceptions can be made for deliveries. I live in a major city and I don't have a car. Parking is no issue for me at all :)

Ah, but

- astronomical housing costs in the small radius of convenient non-driving commutes to the downtown business district

- exposure to high crime and dysfunctional public schools (possibly requiring the purchase of private K12) in said radius

- travel times to common destinations by public transit 2-3x driving, meaning less engagement with the rest of the world or less free time

- One of

a) standing on a lurching vehicle with an arm raised over your head, rather than sitting in a vehicle as comfortable and smooth as you care to make it

b) cardio, outdoors in whatever the weather happens to be, with no shower at the not-home end of the trip

c) the cost of another person's time to drive you, in addition to the usual fuel + wear and tear

required to get anywhere

are all issues of parking, in that they can all be avoided with more parking and are all exacerbated/forced to the forefront of more people's lives with less parking.

If you are in a US city and truly exposed to none of these, please let me know which one so I can move there.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#190

Post by ptaipale »

et-al wrote: post #161
djsumdog wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of bicycles in The Netherlands is absolutely surreal. Both in major cities and out in the suburbs, bicycles are everywhere. I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Large cities in Germany or the UK or anywhere else I've seen cannot compare to the magnitude of people on bicycles in The Netherlands.

Most people in China don't wear helmets either. Helmets prevent brain injury, but generally you'd have to be going pretty fast, or get hit by a car really fast to land on your head to require one (and then you probably have other injuries to contend with). Also, we have bike light laws in California, but there are plenty of cyclists that don't use them. Personally, if I had to choose between riding without a helmet,…

>Helmets prevent brain injury, but generally you'd have to be going pretty fast, or get hit by a car really fast to land on your head to require one (and then you probably have other injuries to contend with).

This is wrong. There's some research done on that over here (Finland).

First of all, about two thirds of severe bicycle injuries happen without any third parties involved, cars or not. Head injuries are the worst also in this group.

Second, a large part of the injuries happen at low speeds, and landing on your head doesn't require fast speeds at all. In fact many of the injuries to head happen at low speeds.

And then my personal anecdotes: I've hurt myself three times on bike so much that I needed hospital to check me up.

First time, I was 6 years old, fell on my own, broke a clavicle bone.

Second time, I was 27 years old on my way to work, a child sprang in front of me, I went OTB and broke a radix bone. My head just chipped the ground a little bit. I started to wear helmet after that.

Third time, I was 48 years old on my way from work to home, I fell on my own when I was surprised by some ice. Fairly low speed. No bones broken, but I definitely would have cracked my skull if I had not been wearing the helmet, the bang inside the helmet is something I remember. Just had to skip riding for 6 weeks due to bruises but I still have my skull.

I'll probably skip riding the year I'm 69.

And you need to believe that you may crack your head even in low speeds and you really should wear that helmet, it may save your life, or it may save your family from having to visit a vegetable.

I did live in China some years back, and the beliefs that people had e.g. about safety belts were astonishing. Particularly the reluctance to use them for your own safety. People would even buckle up when they see the police and then take it off right away. There's probably still some way to go there:

http://www.carnewschina.com/2013/03/02/fooling-the-police-wi...

Finally, I totally agree with what you say about lights. In the dark, they are more important than helmet. But that's not a choice you have to make. Have both.

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