Live data from Hacker News

The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

99percentinvisible.org

81–90 of 612 posts

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#81
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In San Francisco, especially in the southern neighborhoods, they simply park in the bike lanes: pick up trucks, cleaning services vans, even ice cream carts! Park for 15, 30, 45 minutes.

That's an enforcement problem. If you did this in Amsterdam you'd likely return to a car without mirrors and wipers.

>you'd likely return to a car without mirrors and wipers

what happens to them?

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#83
post #63

Cycling here in Boulder is definitely much more dangerous compared to The Netherlands. A lot of cars turn right without checking for bikes. What's up with that? On the other hand the bike sharing program here in Boulder is the best I've ever seen. (I'm Dutch and live in Boulder, Colorado)

> A lot of cars turn right without checking for bikes. What's up with that? Why are you to the right of the turning lane? If you are a vehicle, act like a (slow-moving, natch) vehicle: get in the right-most through lane, and hold it.

Because that forces you into car traffic, a place where a cyclist would rather not be. Straight through traffic on bicycles should not have to cross right turning cars, but should stay in the rightmost lane because that separates cycling traffic from car traffic the most.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#84

I guess this is not a bad idea, but just looking in the side mirror before opening the door is easier to do, and probably easier to teach people to do. As a cyclist, I give parked cars as much room as possible. I've never been doored... though I've never ridden in NYC either.

And your 'dead corner' is a lot smaller that way too, the rear roof support ('C style') can be quite wide and obscure a lot of your vision.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#85
post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

"As a bicyclist...As a pedestrian...As a driver" Uh huh. 100% agree. Street parking is especially dangerous because it is not sufficient to look for the presence of a car; I must look for the presence of a car, and continue looking until I ascertain whether it's one of the dozens of parked vehicles. But...street parking is also very convenient. Streets are very close to where people want to get to; no need to walk fr…

I have never found street parking convenient. It will depend on where you live but I tend to find that it's never available so you wind through the streets and inevitably end up far from where you wanted to be.

Thinking specifically of CBD type locations, removing street parking and having more mobility on foot or bicycle works better for me because I can drive straight to a big parking building, then move swiftly to where I need to be.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#86
post #51

The real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have…

You don't have to get rid of street parking entirely. Another option is to put a separated bike lane between the parked cars and the sidewalk. This way cyclists are protected from traffic and parked cars (ensure a bit of room for the passenger door). Also the increased cognitive load of having to pay attention to many things occurring on the road is not necessarily a bad thing. There is evidence that having to pay at…

On my commute to work, the "bike lane" is shared between bicycles, cars, parked cars (between the bikers and sidewalk), and busses. Basically, they painted bike logos on the asphalt in an already jam packed lane and told everyone to share!

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an enforcement problem. If you did this in Amsterdam you'd likely return to a car without mirrors and wipers.

>you'd likely return to a car without mirrors and wipers what happens to them?

Some people would get extremely upset at blocking the bike lane and forcing cyclists into traffic or over the sidewalk. A passing scooter might not make it in time and is likely to clip your mirrors in the process depending on how much room they have to maneuver (likely not a lot or you wouldn't be parking in the bike lane to begin with). As for the wipers, that would likely be vandalism, but it's still cheaper to fix than the parking ticket that would follow immediately if your car would not be towed to the municipal holding facility from where you can 'buy it back' for a sum that will remind you not to park your car like that for the rest of your life (419 Euros) for being an impediment to traffic safety.

Seriously, if you're in Amsterdam and you feel like parking in a bike lane is acceptable please do not do it, it will not end well.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#88

I guess this is not a bad idea, but just looking in the side mirror before opening the door is easier to do, and probably easier to teach people to do. As a cyclist, I give parked cars as much room as possible. I've never been doored... though I've never ridden in NYC either.

And your 'dead corner' is a lot smaller that way too, the rear roof support ('C style') can be quite wide and obscure a lot of your vision.

> the rear roof support 'C style') can be quite wide and obscure a lot of your vision

It's getting worse and worse. Older cars (like 10-15 years old) still had bigger windows and thinner roof support. Sure, the cars looked maybe a bit less stylish, but the overview for the driver was a lot better (in all directions). Also new cars are wider and longer. Nowadays it's often hard to fit your car in a parking lot, and the doors open outside of the marked space. Some regulation would help to force manufacturers to think about designing cars a bit more.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Local governments have been kind enough to paint warning marks for cyclists, advising them of the safe distance from parked cars and kerbs. Non-cyclists call these warning marks "bike lanes". Cyclists need at least a metre of space on the nearside at all times. It's your escape route if cars pass too closely. It's your protective buffer against being doored or against pedestrians stepping out into your path. Hugging…

> Be brave and take the lane. If you delay other road users, let them honk and shout - that metre of space is literally a matter of life and death. In a country that already respects cyclists this may work. In a country that does not it will likely get you to wake up in the infirmary (assuming you wake up at all) after being hit by someone in a hurry that assumed you were going to give their 2 ton vehicle the room it…

In my experience taking the lane stops people from assuming that they have space to pass except by changing lanes. Car drivers mostly take their cues from the cyclist. If you're cycling in the gutter it signals for car drivers to try to overtake you in the same lane. Why would you be in the gutter, except to yield the rest of your lane to cars?

There's not space for a car and a bicycle in the same lane. A car will always have to at least partially change lanes to overtake safely. You're better off being 2/3 of a lane over, so your head is in the same position as every other driver, and car drivers change lanes completely to pass as they would for any other vehicle.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#90
post #40

As a Dutch person, this is probably the cause of our parents always telling us to carefully open the door by looking first. And if you are not sure, open it a bit to see more. Also, in our license test, you'll have to learn the following rule: Getting out of the car, is just like turning the car, a special operation and you need to give everyone else priority so that your action will not cause problems. So take your…

This is far more believable than the claim that using the far hand will force you to turn 90 degrees inside the car and scan fully before getting out. It might serve as a good habit/reminder, but it's neither necessary nor sufficient to create this behavior. I think much of the US is unaware of how seriously some other countries take driver's training. Our standards are appallingly low.

Agreed. I was definitely taught to always shoulder check before turning right, and I can't remember whether I was explicitly taught or not, but it just seems like common sense to check if anything is coming before swinging your door open. That said, clearly it's not, so that really needs to be taught better as well. (And of course the third one that they do far better than us in Holland, and in Europe in general, is lane use.)

Each of these is clearly a matter of poor education. I still remember my driving test having three increasingly ridiculous questions about how it's never ok to go even 1kph over the speed limit, but no emphasis whatsoever on these issues. I hope it's changed since then, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

Post reply on HN