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The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

theguardian.com

21–30 of 52 posts

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#21

This article has little to do with the clickbait title of philosophy being over. It's mostly just a review of a book of revisionist history of Enlightenment-era Western philosophy.

The book apparently attacks the popular idea that philosophy is over.

And that word "revisionist," used so frequently to dismiss what one thinks they already know -- how useful is that word in advancing anything but maintenance of the status quo?

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#22
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an understandable mistake (if it was one), as Plato wrote most of his works as dialogues between Socrates and other Athenians (including Republic, where the Allegory of the Cave originates). From another angle, the paragraph in reference is a summary of what the article's author believes the author of the book being reviewed alleges is the macro-narrative in regards to philosophy as presented today and understoo…

Well, wait a minute. The Eleusinian mysteries were ancient by the time that Socrates was mentoring Plato. Plato was just the first to write this stuff down. How do we know that Plato wasn't reporting what Socrates taught him? And, if true, how can we be sure that Socrates didn't get the idea from someone else? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

>How do we know that Plato wasn't reporting what Socrates taught him? And, if true, how can we be sure that Socrates didn't get the idea from someone else?

Quite plainly, we don't know. It seems irrelevant, however, as the line of inquiry was about whether the article-author mistakenly attributed the Allegory of the Cave to Socrates when the 'correct' attribution is to Plato (that is, the established/agreed-upon/canonical attribution), not whether or not the Allegory is a wholly original, purely inspired, spontaneously birthed thought from Plato.

In regards to the ideas truly being Socrates' or those of a precedent, I'm aware of nothing that indicates that being the case (other than the standard A influences B influences C, etc, nature of philosophy). I'm no expert, but it seemed clear to me in reading Plato's work after the death of Socrates (e.g., Republic) that he is radically departing from the views of his teacher. If the counterpoint is that Plato received all of this wisdom from Socrates, then attributed the introductory bits to his teacher and kept the juiciest for himself, we know that's not the case: many other contemporaries wrote about the views of Socrates and some even recorded Socratic dialogues.

In Republic, Plato advocates things like an elite intellectual class that actively deceives the hoi polloi and prevents them from accessing philosophy, yet Socrates was put to death for his repeated attempts at engaging all Athenians who would listen in philosophical debates. Socrates warned against the youth of Athens losing their ability to think critically, while Plato advocates a utopian system predicated on the vast majority of its citizens not questioning things at all. In fact, it's frequently suggested that Plato's dramatic departure from the Socratic notion of "I know nothing" and the near-totalitarian features of his Republic are direct results of the Athenians turning on and executing Socrates. The entire idea of a Philosopher King and an enlightened ruling class micromanaging the lives of the producer/worker and guardian/soldier classes seems like a plan to ensure that no great thinker ever suffers the same fate as Socrates. With the rebellious and reactionary nature of the Republic established, it seems clear he didn't get the ideas contained within from Socrates. This seems especially true because Plato does not discuss them until ~380 BC, almost two decades after the death of Socrates. If he inherited or stole the ideas, why wait so long to talk about it? And why didn't anyone else know about it (Plato was one of several students who followed Socrates)?

I've glanced, very lightly, over the Wikipedia page for the Eleusinian Mysteries, and there's nothing specific leaping out at me as inspiration for the Allegory of the Cave (other than the idea of a layered underworld, but that's not unique to the Mysteries or particularly reflective of the Cave). I'm unfamiliar with these ideas; can you expound upon the connection, or is the argument just that because the Mysteries were ancient and once orally disseminated, there's a chance that the Allegory was too and merely reported by Plato as original?

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#23
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feynman was pretty sophisticated philosophically when it came to scientific matters. I'm not sure he studied the philosophical literature much partly because a lot of it is kind of bad. See him on why questions for example - http://lesswrong.com/lw/99c/transcript_richard_feynman_on_wh... Or his talk on cargo cult science - http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm Or the discussion of quantum mechanics…

Thank you for these. On the "why questions" video from the first link, which I've seen before, Feynman's answer only shows that he's used to answering the kind of question asked of him, regarding why magnets repel, and similar questions involving physics. Yes, he realizes that there are larger issues involved in such questions and their answers, but he steers all the answers and questions back to physics, which to hi…

>But it's not nearly as insightful as it could have been had he actually undertaken to study the subject academically.

I'm curious to how it could have been improved by insights from academic philosophy. I'm not expert but glanced at the Wikipedia entry on philosophy of science and find it hard to see what you'd go with.

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#24
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for these. On the "why questions" video from the first link, which I've seen before, Feynman's answer only shows that he's used to answering the kind of question asked of him, regarding why magnets repel, and similar questions involving physics. Yes, he realizes that there are larger issues involved in such questions and their answers, but he steers all the answers and questions back to physics, which to hi…

>But it's not nearly as insightful as it could have been had he actually undertaken to study the subject academically. I'm curious to how it could have been improved by insights from academic philosophy. I'm not expert but glanced at the Wikipedia entry on philosophy of science and find it hard to see what you'd go with.

It's been a while since I took a philosophy of science course myself, so I can't point you to any specific resources, except to encourage you to take a course in the subject yourself if you are interested.

Just to give you a taste of what to expect though: imagine a lot of very smart people considering the sorts of issues Feynman is raising, but devoting whole books to them, trying to cover these issues from every conceivable angle and taking in to account all of the other points of view on these issues (not just those of Feynman himself or some astrologers or psychics, as Feynman did). Then there are the books in response to those books, trying to be just as thorough in answering the questions the the first author wrote about, and seeing if there's something they missed or any other constructive way to think about them, and so on.

In short, there's an entire academic field that studies these questions and many other related ones, that isn't going to be covered by a little essay by any single scientist -- no matter how brilliant he was. He didn't have the final word, and not even much of a word in the first place, considering his lack of study of and engagement with the field.

Feynmann's own words in the essay on "Cargo Cult Science" are salient here:

"It’s a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty--a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you’re doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid--not only what you think is right about it"

It's telling that Feynmann does not apply this principle of integrity to the views he expresses in his own essay. He does not, even for a moment, write about what could possibly be wrong with his point of view. But such questioning is quite common in the philosophy of science. They don't stop with dogmas and ideals regarding what science ought to be, as Feynman does. They go further and question them, and much else besides.

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feynman did have a body of work to lean on that implies he understood science very deeply, which leads me to wonder what secrets the "philosophy of science" could possibly hold that he didn't understand. Edit: verb tenses that wishfully put forth we still had Feynman.

If you are sincerely interested in the answer to that question, I urge you to take a philosophy of science class.

I'm not interested enough to take time for something so elusively abstract that seemingly no one can even summarize it convincingly

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are sincerely interested in the answer to that question, I urge you to take a philosophy of science class.

I'm not interested enough to take time for something so elusively abstract that seemingly no one can even summarize it convincingly

Please summarize physics for me.

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for these. On the "why questions" video from the first link, which I've seen before, Feynman's answer only shows that he's used to answering the kind of question asked of him, regarding why magnets repel, and similar questions involving physics. Yes, he realizes that there are larger issues involved in such questions and their answers, but he steers all the answers and questions back to physics, which to hi…

>But it's not nearly as insightful as it could have been had he actually undertaken to study the subject academically. I'm curious to how it could have been improved by insights from academic philosophy. I'm not expert but glanced at the Wikipedia entry on philosophy of science and find it hard to see what you'd go with.

Wikipedia entries on philosophy are uniformly bad. Unfortunately I've never read a phil sci introduction that I liked, but if you're interested here is a sampling of notable phil sci books that occurred to me now. Note that many people who write phil sci might have professorships in other departments than philosophy and typically have an advanced degree in the science they specialize in. They just have more of an interest in speculative issues that build off already existing results or second-order questions or broadly integrative work than most practicioners, as well as at least enough background in the broader philosophical tradition to avoid basic gaffes or self-inflation resulting from narrow vision.

Judea Pearl - Causality

John Earman - World Enough and Space-Time: Absolute vs. Relational Theories of Space and Time

James Woodward - Making Things Happen

Jeff Bub - Interpreting the Quantum World

Peter Godfrey-Smith - Darwinian Populations and Natural Selection

Jesse Prinz - The Conscious Brain

Kim Sterelny - Thought in a Hostile World

And some historically important works:

Carnap - The Logical Structure of the World (in a loose sense, the first attempt at an AI program)

Popper - The Logic of Scientific Discovery (the philosophy of science practicing scientists now inherit and unquestionably assume)

Kuhn - The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (a ubiquitous work on scientific practice)

Readers of HN might also dig up Scott Aaronson's paper on how complexity theory might be applied to certain philosophical questions.

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#28
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an understandable mistake (if it was one), as Plato wrote most of his works as dialogues between Socrates and other Athenians (including Republic, where the Allegory of the Cave originates). From another angle, the paragraph in reference is a summary of what the article's author believes the author of the book being reviewed alleges is the macro-narrative in regards to philosophy as presented today and understoo…

Well, wait a minute. The Eleusinian mysteries were ancient by the time that Socrates was mentoring Plato. Plato was just the first to write this stuff down. How do we know that Plato wasn't reporting what Socrates taught him? And, if true, how can we be sure that Socrates didn't get the idea from someone else? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

There is a lot of work that traces developments in Plato's ideas, and a rough consensus that some dialogues are more Socratic and others reflect Plato more (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato/#HisSocEarMidLatDia). There's a mixture of stylometrics, contemporary accounts, and other arguments that are used to try and assign responsibility. It's an inherently imprecise project, and I didn't do much ancient philosophy so I can't tell you much about it, but it seemed sensible when I took courses on Plato.

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#29
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be difficult to argue that science is the only lasting source of enlightenment. Science certainly helped to disentangle us from religious dogma and to provide a new, rational foundation for interpreting the world. It has led to an unprecedented advancement of technology and a deeper understanding of the universe. But in what way does science in the 21st century continue to advance and preserve human enlighte…

>But in what way does science in the 21st century continue to advance and preserve human enlightenment? It isn't difficult to acknowledge the opposite effect -- that science has led to a certain disenchantment with the world and our place in it. I think that the regression of human enlightenment comes more from your insistence about how science destroys magic, which never actually existed , than from science itself.…

This isn't true. The majority of contemporary philosophers do not believe in anything supernatural, but plenty of scientists still dismiss their work.

I say nothing supernatural, because the precise meaning of "naturalism" is contested in philosophy. For rather complex reasons, you can accept evolution, accept that modern physics is essentially accurate (only inaccurate so far as we're still discovering things and refining theory, etc), deny that there are immaterial souls or Cartesian dualism, yet not count as a naturalist. I am not sure if naturalism is necessarily a majority position.

Re: The Dream of Enlightenment by Anthony Gottlieb review

#30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it's not nearly as insightful as it could have been had he actually undertaken to study the subject academically. I'm curious to how it could have been improved by insights from academic philosophy. I'm not expert but glanced at the Wikipedia entry on philosophy of science and find it hard to see what you'd go with.

It's been a while since I took a philosophy of science course myself, so I can't point you to any specific resources, except to encourage you to take a course in the subject yourself if you are interested. Just to give you a taste of what to expect though: imagine a lot of very smart people considering the sorts of issues Feynman is raising, but devoting whole books to them, trying to cover these issues from every co…

In "Cargo Cult Science" Feynman showed a lot of insight into the current replication crisis decades before it blew up -- at least, that's how it looks to me as an outsider. Did any philosopher do better? (Ahead of time, again.) It wouldn't surprise me, and I'd like to check out their work, but from my own reading I can't think of anyone.

By "do better" I mean in an equivalent few pages to advise a new graduate about how to discover things that are true, as a focus sometimes at odds with advancing their career, because that's what Feynman's graduation speech was about.

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