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A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

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Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#221
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>At which point you're in the minority because the set of people who affirmatively want to give up their privacy is not larger than the set who either don't want to or don't care. The set of people who affirmatively want to give up their privacy is in the majority if most people don't care about privacy but want privacy reducing features. Sure, in a perfect world they'd take both, but we're talking about which is mo…

OK, so let's actually talk about those people then. The theory is that there is an unavoidable compromise between privacy and features and some people will legitimately choose features. That can be true, e.g. to do "people like you also viewed ..." you need the data on what people like you also viewed. But those things are relatively rare and can be separated out. You can layer them on top of a decentralized system -…

The data analysis required to improve search relevance, video recommendation, A/B testing, feature improvement - basically anything, relies on crunching data on as many users as possible. For example, you cannot get to Google or Facebook's level of artificial intelligence research and performance achievements without truly vast amounts of data.

This criticism of decentralization is in addition to my parallel comment in this thread about how you cannot realistically and significantly improve privacy with feature parity.

The performance and reliability would also be difficult to manage without centralized servers. You're not going to be maintaining the same uptime guarantees.

Finally, how are you going to motivate development in a decentralized manner? You're removing capitalist incentives to improve the product. This would have to be managed by a consortium of companies, which doesn't sound like a much better situation than we have now, or it would have to be an open protocol. If companies weren't earning a profit on developing features for further user demand, how would the products improve as well as they do now?

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#222
post #210

The is awesome! I hope they're able to bring their vision of a decentralized web to fruition! The biggest outstanding problem that nobody seems to be talking about though is how to monetize a decentralized business. With the current web there are lots of options that have varying degrees of nastiness for their users but ultimately pay developer salaries: 3rd party ads, IP/API licensing, pay for product, data collecti…

There's no need to monetize user generated content. That's what these companies do. They make people generate content for them for free and use it to sell ads while creating an orwellian dystopia.

I wasn't really suggesting that businesses keep using the same web 2.0 models. Just fishing for ideas for the distributed web. If teams are actually going to commit thousands or millions of work hours into making products, then there should be a way for them to be rewarded for their job. Making money isn't inherently evil, but making it at the users' expense is.

idk, there could be client-side Bitcoin mining if somehow you can find a breakthrough mining algorithm (maybe using Algebraic Cryptography or Satisfiability Theory) that runs an order of magnitude faster than current and users are OK with running it.

e-commerce could have some kind of payment system with escrow where you could charge a small operating tax. Hard to ensure everything works though since all code is running client-side, which can't be trusted.

pay per download probably still works.

others?

I agree that ads, tracking, IAP, and other stuff should be left out.

It's weird to think about services which as the creator you really have no control over once it's released (I'm thinking of Freenet or GNU social style services). There aren't any services that I know of which are both 100% distributed and making money on the regular.

Not really well thought out ideas, just putting stuff out there.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 . > It is these "decentralized" people who are out of touch, not the ordinary people. This statement seems a bit condescending, just saying.. 2. In my post I'm not trying to make value judgements, but just offer a possible explanation why things are the way they are, and who may have better chances to change them. 3. I don't think that we should/can decentralize everything, but I do believe there is a worrying tend…

> 1 . > It is these "decentralized" people who are out of touch, not the ordinary people. > This statement seems a bit condescending, just saying.. I don't think that's what condescending means. Decentralization/Centralization is nothing new. In fact the entire history of humanity is about pendulum swinging back and forth between centralization and decentralization. And in 100% of the cases when this happens it's not…

> I don't think that's what condescending means.

Not a native speaker, so maybe I got that wrong, but this is the definition Google gives: "having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority.", and this is what I was referring to.

Agree with what you say about the varying degrees of centralization/decentralization throughout history, but don't think that these changes happen out of the blue. Education is usually needed to bring about change and not because people are dumb, but because information doesn't always gets to them easy. So maybe this is what's happening now. You can think of it as a balancing force...

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#225

A real barrier to a decentralised web is the difficulty of installing software on a server. I know that sounds really mundane and inconsequential in the broader debate about a decentralised web, but consider the following... Imagine if installing a server-side chat app, message board, project management app, or CMS were as easy as installing a desktop app. In a desktop app, it's usually one click to start the install…

> A real barrier to a decentralised web is the difficulty of installing software on a server … Imagine if installing a server-side chat app, message board, project management app, or CMS were as easy as installing a desktop app.

If you have a desktop, you can install any server software you want. And if you have a desktop, you can leave it running as long as you want. You don't need to purchase a host somewhere; you can just use the computer you own.

Heck, you own a computer which is on 24/7 already: your cell phone. And software written well could run on that phone to serve whatever you want, at a minimal cost in CPU & hence battery.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe both of you are on the opposite sides of a false dichotomy. Just sayin'...

If you want to say something like this, at least back it up with something. Anyone can say "You two are both wrong" and sound smart. Also which part of "people don't understand" is not condescending? Funny enough, I watched this movie called Barton Fink last night, and it's a perfect depiction of this nonsense.

Maybe you think the web can only be totally decentralized or totally centralized, but I don't think so and that's why I made the comment. Someone can be fine with centralized banks and still favor decentralized social networks and running your own p2p servers, for instance. If you disagree, fine, but don't pretend that my post was condescending.

Take it easy.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#227

The is awesome! I hope they're able to bring their vision of a decentralized web to fruition! The biggest outstanding problem that nobody seems to be talking about though is how to monetize a decentralized business. With the current web there are lots of options that have varying degrees of nastiness for their users but ultimately pay developer salaries: 3rd party ads, IP/API licensing, pay for product, data collecti…

The current standard is "ICOs" (initial coin offerings).

The strategy there is typically to develop a new protocol/service that's openly shared, and selling off a currency tied to an organization responsible for spearheading it. The currencies being some mixture of credit, stock, and increasingly abstract forms of value.

Decentralized protocols still have plenty of room for centralized organizations that extract value from acting as a focal point for community and services built on top of the protocol.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#228

I think the European union should fund the research and development of a decentralized web. Because right now all their information is flowing to the US.

Decentralization won't stop information flowing to the US. We'll just have to buy additional peerage points. Our budget and desire to spy on the world is greater than the world's resolve to not be spied on.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#229
post #10

"A decentralized web would be very slightly inconvenient to the people so forget about your freedom and privacy who cares about that." More realistic title. It would make for a shorter article though.

Switching from Facebook to, say, Diaspora or something is more than just "slightly inconvenient". One of them has all of my friends on it and the other has none. -- Two ideas for how we can help decentralization win. 1. Don't just clone an existing app. The two decentralized protocols with the most adoption by far are Bitcoin and BitTorrent. Both of them have capabilities that no centralized system can match. Same wi…

Since 0.6.0 which came out in May, the UI of PyBitmessage has been redesigned.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#230

So nobody can "give the power back" to anybody, but people can stop giving their power away to others. We all have power, and we manifest it through our actions and choices. Some say knowledge is power, but in order to gain knowledge you have to make that choice. One can try to educate people about the benefits of hosting their own data, but unless they make the choice to listen and understand it's all for nothing. I…

You are underestimating the power of external influences. It's not just about what individuals decide for themselves. Because right now, even if you decide to learn what it takes to have your decentralised internet back, that still may not be enough.

We still don't have an easy to use computer that can run 24/7 in your own home, on which you can install a blog, vlog, social stuff, email, as easily as you use the current centralised services. When I first installed my mail server, it took me a week. I'm not a system administrator, but I am a developer familiar with GNU/Linux. Your average muggle doesn't stand a chance.

Even if we had those little computers, our bandwidth is still asymmetric (even the fibre, even though it makes no technical sense) and that decision is a corporate one, that you are not going to reverse by voting with your wallet.

Even if we had our symmetric bandwidth, we still cannot send emails from our own home. I mean we could send it, but it would be rejected by every big players out there, as well as most mail filtering systems, because the current assumption is that if it comes from a residential IP, it's spam.

And we still don't know how to make a decentralised search engine.

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The choice these days is simple: either you give up on the likes of privacy and anonymity, or you shut yourself from the network. It's not a binary choice —more like a spectrum in fact— but there is no third alternative yet. For instance, I don't use Facebook. I missed some events because of that, and people are surprised I didn't know about that party I was invited in. It's the fifth time I told them I never log in, dammit!

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