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A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

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Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#161

Post by JohnStrange »

catscratch wrote: post #66
Gys wrote: post #56

To most people (99% ?) Facebook, Instagram, Google etc offer everything they want. So they do not feel a need for getting the 'power back'. It all comes down to perceived (!) value. Once people use one thing, they will only switch if something else offers a clear higher value. At that point offering the same value is not enough anymore. This higher value has to be something that makes every day life in a very obvious…

Where the change will come is when we are no longer dependent on paying for network access. That will be the financial incentive. A fully decentralized web would be delivered peer-to-peer via a mesh network or something similar. Anything else is a farce, because it's not just about who holds the data on the network, it's about the network itself. If any link in the chain of the communication can be controlled by some…

This won't happen anyway, because it's a classic collective choice problem. If all people put some alternative software on their WIFI router at the same time, this fully decentralized mesh web would come into existence at once in most densely populated areas in Europe and the US (all big cities at least), and almost everybody would have an immediate advantage from it. But if only a few people do it first, they'll have tremendous disadvantages from it due to freeriders, abuses, etc. So it won't happen ever.

I remember to have seen a protocol for such ad hoc mesh networks that wasn't even IP-based and could be implemented on most routers. The network can dynamically self-configure, route around failures, and nodes can go in and out of existence whenever they want. It looked pretty cool but unfortunately can't remember where I've seen it. :/

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#162

Post by dsacco »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #156
dsacco wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about them because I disagree with the ideological sentiment that they are not a significant portion (perhaps majority) of the population. How did you quantify the "millions of people" who you claim are ignorant or unwillingly forced into it? It's easy for people to misunderstand others' values as being based on misconceptions and assume they are either ignorant or malicious. Members of identity groups (i…

You're making the argument from apathy. Sure, there are a ton of people who don't care . But what interest of theirs are you defending? "Don't care either way" is not an objection to change. Ambivalence about privacy is not the same as a preference to give it up.

I'm defending the idea that they are disinterested in change not because they are ignorant, but because they are fully aware and accepting of what they're giving up. I am not arguing that they don't care either way.

If they otherwise don't care, but they appreciate the usability and convenience features of these products, then that is an objection to change if they won't get the same features in more open, private alternatives.

My second point is this: if enough people can be described as both aware and accepting, then mainstream change will not occur because people like what they have more than they like their privacy, and they make that decision in an informed and responsible manner that does not provide a market opportunity.

You can make an alternative, and it can be great (e.g. DuckDuckGo), but it will not be mainstream.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#163

Post by drvdevd »

catscratch wrote: post #66
Gys wrote: post #56

To most people (99% ?) Facebook, Instagram, Google etc offer everything they want. So they do not feel a need for getting the 'power back'. It all comes down to perceived (!) value. Once people use one thing, they will only switch if something else offers a clear higher value. At that point offering the same value is not enough anymore. This higher value has to be something that makes every day life in a very obvious…

Where the change will come is when we are no longer dependent on paying for network access. That will be the financial incentive. A fully decentralized web would be delivered peer-to-peer via a mesh network or something similar. Anything else is a farce, because it's not just about who holds the data on the network, it's about the network itself. If any link in the chain of the communication can be controlled by some…

For me the following points come to mind reading something like this, which I think you also partly addressed:

1) Cloud hosting --> might as well use the centralized application because this is still centralized.

2) Peering your own hardware for a direct internet connection is not accessible to most people.

3) even in a p2p context, your PC or mobile device is not under your full control and especially in the US, most broadband goes through one of a small number of service providers (Comcast for example)

So I agree with you: network architecture is a major stumbling block.

On second thought, though, that still doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to create "decentralized" applications that are accessible to most average people somehow. I believe this is possible and without a huge upfront cost (besides time). They could still gain power through traction.

And as far as hosting content for others in a p2p context, I think part of the point of a scheme like that is you should never be able to know what you're hosting. It should be opaque encrypted blocks of data, right?

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#164

Post by [deleted] »

catscratch wrote: post #66
Gys wrote: post #56

To most people (99% ?) Facebook, Instagram, Google etc offer everything they want. So they do not feel a need for getting the 'power back'. It all comes down to perceived (!) value. Once people use one thing, they will only switch if something else offers a clear higher value. At that point offering the same value is not enough anymore. This higher value has to be something that makes every day life in a very obvious…

Where the change will come is when we are no longer dependent on paying for network access. That will be the financial incentive. A fully decentralized web would be delivered peer-to-peer via a mesh network or something similar. Anything else is a farce, because it's not just about who holds the data on the network, it's about the network itself. If any link in the chain of the communication can be controlled by some…

[deleted]

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#165

Post by Arathorn »

clydethefrog wrote: post #85
Arathorn wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea where the mangled paragraphs came from - they weren't in the version I sent TechCrunch :(

Maybe inform them? Several comments on (centralized ;) ) social media are criticising the article because of the way it's written instead of discussing the message of the article, sure TC doesn't want that.

yup, I mailed/pinged them within 45 mins of it going up; no response yet :(

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#166

Post by protomyth »

y4mi wrote: post #159
api wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ISPs don't do that. That's your NAT/firewall. Has anyone ever actually seen an ISP network that filters local traffic to other ISP endpoints? I'm not even sure why they would do that. DDOS almost always targets big things in the cloud so it would not help there. Here (SoCal) traceroute to a host in the same local neighborhood is three hops.

my ISP blacklists some random ports on consumer contracts. you could of course go with non-standard ones, its still another complication that they throw your way.

I blacklist 25 out except from our mail server. That's just basic common sense given some of the spyware. Users who need to send mail will use encrypted 465 or 587 anyway.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#167

Post by drvdevd »

bogomipz wrote: post #112
Gys wrote: post #56

To most people (99% ?) Facebook, Instagram, Google etc offer everything they want. So they do not feel a need for getting the 'power back'. It all comes down to perceived (!) value. Once people use one thing, they will only switch if something else offers a clear higher value. At that point offering the same value is not enough anymore. This higher value has to be something that makes every day life in a very obvious…

I also think there is a generational component to this as well. You have an age group who don't know an internet prior to this centralization grab. So there is not much in the way of a standard of comparison for them.

Right. Probably the only way newer generations who've grown up in this context will come to embrace an alternative is if it at least looks like the centralized apps (on the centralized platforms) they're used to.

So you have to create a system that's decentralized and yet has the interface of a centralized application and which is distributed on centralized, mostly monopolized platforms.

So that's certainly an undertaking... but not necessarily impossible.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#168

Post by benevol »

zer0gravity wrote: post #116

So nobody can "give the power back" to anybody, but people can stop giving their power away to others. We all have power, and we manifest it through our actions and choices. Some say knowledge is power, but in order to gain knowledge you have to make that choice. One can try to educate people about the benefits of hosting their own data, but unless they make the choice to listen and understand it's all for nothing. I…

> but unless they make the choice to listen and understand it's all for nothing

And when do we usually listen? When we feel the pain. Which is why we'll probably have to feel the pain of authoritarian governments in the near future, to gain enough understanding, before we can make that transition to a better humanity. I just hope this painful transition won't take too long.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#170

Post by [deleted] »

api wrote: post #73
CalRobert wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sandstorm is awesome. Of course, it would help if ISP's weren't so keen to make sure nobody actually uses the internet to make computers talk to each other, instead of just having Amazon, FB, and Google's computers talk at you.

ISPs don't do that. That's your NAT/firewall. Has anyone ever actually seen an ISP network that filters local traffic to other ISP endpoints? I'm not even sure why they would do that. DDOS almost always targets big things in the cloud so it would not help there. Here (SoCal) traceroute to a host in the same local neighborhood is three hops.

[deleted]
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