Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#91

Post by uola » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 9:44 PM UTC

I would consider if focusing learning CS or fundamentals is the right approach. What is the plan when he gets out? I'm not sure there's a lot of beginner CS or C jobs around without credentials. Is he going to try and go to school afterward and is that actually feasible?

Otherwise I would suggest combining CS with more applied programming with smaller scope (like a web stack), developer methodologies (designing, methodology, testing) or design (interaction, interfaces, experience). Those would be things that he could more easily be practice as he gets out, aren't as focused on credentials and would more likely land him some sort of job.

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#92

Post by icebraining » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 9:46 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #66

mbertschler wrote: post #36

What is the most capable programmable device, that would not be considered a computer by the rules? How about a graphical calculator like a TI-83? While I was stuck in school and did not have access to a computer, I wanted to challenge myself during classes. The most interesting distraction by far was to play around with the programming functions of my TI-82 calculator that was required for math classes. Even with al…

I don't get why people continue to recommend TI-83s. I showed up to Algebra II with an 85, but 83s were weirdly prevalent until calculus "strongly recommended" TI-89s. In this context, the 83 is an awful, awful choice, because TI-83 programs only allow for variable names to be one character long. I was lucky, when someone asked me to copy my TI-85 blackjack program into their TI-83, that I had used less than 28 varia…

True, though you could also create lists freely. I remember writing an artillery game (using the equations learned in our physics class!) and storing the player information in a list each.

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#93

Post by ceterum_censeo » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 9:50 PM UTC

It's hard to say exactly at what point it would be an appropriate read, but perhaps Knuth's The Art of Computer Programming should be on the reading list.

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#94

Post by robert_tweed » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 10:01 PM UTC

In addition to the CS books already recommended by others, do not underestimate the value of flowcharts.

You can draw a program on paper and follow it with a finger to "run" it. With a bit of practise, it'll be possible to run such mental models without even writing them down. At that point you're thinking like a programmer.

This skill is transferrable to any programming language.

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#95

Post by fallous » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 10:06 PM UTC

Start with learning symbolic logic. I'd then suggest learning something like 6502 assembler on a simple machine that existed (in order to attain predictable results and in order to have reference materials based on the programming results and tricks that real coders of that machine achieved).

I'd then suggest moving to something like SICP and/or NANDtoTetris.

If you learn the abstract fundamentals first, you will understand how they apply in every increasingly complex system you encounter... and none of that is syntax or frameworks but instead an ability to see and extract the underlying problem domain, which will then guide you in the solution.

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#96

Post by fallous » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

savanaly wrote: post #81

bluedino wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> He may write programs on paper, and send them to you to type them in, compile them, and print out a listing with the errors. You then send back the listing, and he will correct his program and repeat. The guy could 'run' his hand written programs on his own.

Indeed, that's what people would do back in the day when, between the wait to get an available computer and the time to compile, it could take days to find out the result of your code. Can never be sure it works until you run it for real though, can you? Unless, by chance, you were suggesting he set up some kind of turing machine where running is a different matter than reading your program over in your head?

You're not limited to "a machine that executes code" (even as simple as a Turing machine) and "reading your program in your head." Most 8-bit processors were easily comprehensible by people, and could be represented in a simple state machine. That state machine can be emulated by anyone with pencil and paper, albeit at a billionth the actual execution speed. But walking through assembler that you hand-compile to machine code, and then step through rigorously with a constant eye towards what the processor is doing and how it does it is probably far more valuable than any certificates.

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#97

Post by fallous » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 10:16 PM UTC

fallous wrote: post #95

Start with learning symbolic logic. I'd then suggest learning something like 6502 assembler on a simple machine that existed (in order to attain predictable results and in order to have reference materials based on the programming results and tricks that real coders of that machine achieved). I'd then suggest moving to something like SICP and/or NANDtoTetris. If you learn the abstract fundamentals first, you will und…

To be clear, I understand the student in question cannot have access to an actual 6502-based machine but a simple 8-bit computer (without a lot of custom chips for graphics/sounds/etc) is easily understandable by a reasonably intelligent person and the CPU itself can be expressed in a simple state machine. Given the documentation for a real machine, the student can run by hand the system clock and understand memory latency, the instructions that can be executed, the interrupts, etc. That's a level of fundamental understanding that the vast majority of newly-minted "programmers" have not and will never attain.

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#98

Post by kzahel » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 10:18 PM UTC

jeffmould wrote: post #62

Depends on where he is incarcerated there may be options available and if not he should find ways to bring them to the prison. 1) Edovo is a tablet learning solution that is in many jails ( https://edovo.com/ ) 2) Another group The Last Mile, while they got their start in San Quentin, is working to bring their program/model to more prisons. https://thelastmile.org/ Regardless, I would encourage reaching out to either…

The Last Mile is now up and running in 4 California state prisons. Folsom Women's Facility, Ironwood State Prison, Chuckawalla State Prison, and of course San Quentin.

We're going to be expanding into a few more in 2017. You can see some of the details of how we setup the classroom here: https://github.com/thelastmile/intranet

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#99

Post by jeffmould » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 10:27 PM UTC

kzahel wrote: post #98

jeffmould wrote: post #62

Depends on where he is incarcerated there may be options available and if not he should find ways to bring them to the prison. 1) Edovo is a tablet learning solution that is in many jails ( https://edovo.com/ ) 2) Another group The Last Mile, while they got their start in San Quentin, is working to bring their program/model to more prisons. https://thelastmile.org/ Regardless, I would encourage reaching out to either…

The Last Mile is now up and running in 4 California state prisons. Folsom Women's Facility, Ironwood State Prison, Chuckawalla State Prison, and of course San Quentin. We're going to be expanding into a few more in 2017. You can see some of the details of how we setup the classroom here: https://github.com/thelastmile/intranet

That's great! Chris, Beverly, & the rest of the team, have done an incredible job with The Last Mile. It's an awesome program and great to see the continued success.

Re: Ask HN: Learning to code, without a computer?

#100

Post by phes » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 10:30 PM UTC

I remember reading this here a while back - wonder what happened: https://neil.fraser.name/news/2015/04/13/

But like others in this post I would recommend CS unplugged.

And depending on how long he is in there for he might want to look at:

How to Design Programs - This is a good book, and although it's in Scheme, it teaches how to create appropriate levels of abstraction, which seems to be something many programmers struggle with.

Concepts, Techniques & Models of Computer Programs - Discusses the different paradigms and how they are inter-related.

Also something a bit more vocational like The Pragmatic Programmer or Clean Code / Clean Coder probably wouldn't hurt either.

If he can read all of those he will be very well prepared to do some actual programming when he gets out.

SICP not a bad shout either, although I've not got past the first chapter.