Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#31

Post by rhspeer » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:02 PM UTC

It costs money & time to take people to court, so jerks will under pay you like $2000 because it's not worth the time and effort to go to court over it.

Dev is not like other services in the US where we can easily put leans on property.

So yea, own the hosting, take down their site if they don't pay.

I promise you every business owner has to deal with people that don't pay their bills and will understand.

Have a low tolerance for assholes, and if you ever get a lead on a client bad mouthing their previous developers about holding their project hostage, just run.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#32

Post by brassic » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

adekok wrote: post #8

gcr wrote: post #3

Is it legal to build self-destruct systems into contracted work? I'd be super wary of adding this...

Put a clause into the contract which says that you own all copyrights, IP, etc. until such time as payment has cleared. It is perfectly legal for you to mangle your own web site. Even if it's a site you made at someone else's request. If they haven't paid, they don't own it, and they have no right to complain.

It's not that simple.

A UK contractor was prosecuted many years ago for putting a time bomb in software he wrote and was never paid for.

It remained his software but it was running on their computer. When it ceased to function that was considered to be an authorised change to their system under the computer misuse act. And he was found guilty of a criminal offence.

Websites are a bit more of a grey area. Whose server is it? Who's paying for it? Who owns the domain? Whatever the answer to these questions, it's not clear how a judge would decide it.

Bottom line: unless your contract makes very clear that your software/website/whatever will cease to function on a particular date you could be looking at time in prison.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#33

Post by mickronome » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:08 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #24

Retric wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, public shaming is 100% legal and protected speech. In specific cases it may be a contract breach, but that does not make it illegal. The largest direct problem with this stuff can be a tiny hit to your reputation. That said, they may sue or counter sue you, which is often a dumb move but by not paying you that have demonstrated sketchy behavior.

This is actually illegal, public shaming would be protected speech if you do it via a proper platform, destroying or tampering with a property which does not belong to you is a criminal offense. Additionally depending on what country you are in this can also be a an offense according to various computer crime laws which means you are not only risking a committing a felony but also being unable to work if the law wher…

Depending on contract and jurisdiction, it might not at all be the clients property until fully paid, and it could be completely legal in some places. I know there are plenty of contracts (backed by law AFAIK) where complete ownership and all rights stays with the contractor until paid according to contract. However it would probably be hard to argue that you've actually made the final delivery, as you have to do another 'delivery' after receiving payment to not have the clients site fade away.

In any case, it would obviously not change the fact that it would probably be a terrible idea to do something like this, ever.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#34

Post by buzer » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:08 PM UTC

dangrossman wrote: post #25

adekok wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put a clause into the contract which says that you own all copyrights, IP, etc. until such time as payment has cleared. It is perfectly legal for you to mangle your own web site. Even if it's a site you made at someone else's request. If they haven't paid, they don't own it, and they have no right to complain.

Your copyright may give you rights to sue the client for infringement once it's clear they aren't going to remedy their breach, yes. A judge may order the copy of your work taken offline or destroyed, yes. But you can't take matters into your own hands and do that without going to court. You do not own the (unlicensed or otherwise) copies of your work that have already been transferred to others, and going onto their…

What if you just implemented simple DRM? As we have seen, it apparently isn't illegal to disable access to something you have paid for, let alone something you haven't.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#35

Post by tomjen3 » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:09 PM UTC

rhspeer wrote: post #31

It costs money & time to take people to court, so jerks will under pay you like $2000 because it's not worth the time and effort to go to court over it. Dev is not like other services in the US where we can easily put leans on property. So yea, own the hosting, take down their site if they don't pay. I promise you every business owner has to deal with people that don't pay their bills and will understand. Have a low…

You actually can - make it so that in the contract devs retain all copyrights until paid in full. Then you can use the DMCA, which is much cheaper and far easier than putting and enforcing a lean on a property.

That said, when you get that far in a sense you have already lost.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#36

Post by TamDenholm » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:10 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #6

Simply do factoring with your bills. You get your money fast and if someone makes problems, the factoring company hsas them. It'ss legal and doesn't need any code.

I looked into this with my company, we got quotes from 3 factoring companies, all were an absolutely terrible deal. They were only willing to factor invoices on our good clients, they were unwilling to factor invoices for non-large company clients, (we have a lot of SME's as clients), they basically wanted to charge us a fortune and not take on any risk.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#37

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:10 PM UTC

dangrossman wrote: post #25

adekok wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put a clause into the contract which says that you own all copyrights, IP, etc. until such time as payment has cleared. It is perfectly legal for you to mangle your own web site. Even if it's a site you made at someone else's request. If they haven't paid, they don't own it, and they have no right to complain.

Your copyright may give you rights to sue the client for infringement once it's clear they aren't going to remedy their breach, yes. A judge may order the copy of your work taken offline or destroyed, yes. But you can't take matters into your own hands and do that without going to court. You do not own the (unlicensed or otherwise) copies of your work that have already been transferred to others, and going onto their…

How so? You contract to provide a specific service, not specific code. The contract should be for transfer of a license (of whatever kind) to use the IP and business benefit, not for full transfer of all IP.

If a client doesn't pay you respond by denying access to the service - which is exactly the same as a hosting company turning off a server for non-payment of hosting fees.

I wouldn't do the fade thing, because while it's entertaining it's rather juvenile. But I would be completely happy to delete all work from a client's server and restore it to its previous state if it's obvious they have no intention of ever paying.

This is normal behaviour for a business. Generally if someone tries to default on payment, they can expect goods to be reclaimed and services to be terminated.

The fact they're running a business and you're a contractor doesn't change that. You're running a business too. If they don't understand that, save yourself the grief and don't work with them.

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#38

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:11 PM UTC

buzer wrote: post #34

dangrossman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your copyright may give you rights to sue the client for infringement once it's clear they aren't going to remedy their breach, yes. A judge may order the copy of your work taken offline or destroyed, yes. But you can't take matters into your own hands and do that without going to court. You do not own the (unlicensed or otherwise) copies of your work that have already been transferred to others, and going onto their…

What if you just implemented simple DRM? As we have seen, it apparently isn't illegal to disable access to something you have paid for, let alone something you haven't.

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#39

Post by k__ » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:14 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #26

adekok wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put a clause into the contract which says that you own all copyrights, IP, etc. until such time as payment has cleared. It is perfectly legal for you to mangle your own web site. Even if it's a site you made at someone else's request. If they haven't paid, they don't own it, and they have no right to complain.

You can't take claim of the IP/copyright no business/client would also sign that contract. You can claim ownership of the work until the payment is cleared but this is also tricky. If the website is hosted on the property of the client tampering with it will constitute a violation of most computer crime/misuse acts even if you hold valid credentials to access it. The best thing to do is if you also operate the websit…

What's so tricky about writing in a contract, that you the owner ship will automatically given to the client after the payment?

I mean, who would say into your face that they don't want to pay you for your work? (what not signing such a contract actually implies)

Re: Show HN: Client not paid? Add opacity to the body

#40

Post by dangrossman » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 3:15 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #37

dangrossman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your copyright may give you rights to sue the client for infringement once it's clear they aren't going to remedy their breach, yes. A judge may order the copy of your work taken offline or destroyed, yes. But you can't take matters into your own hands and do that without going to court. You do not own the (unlicensed or otherwise) copies of your work that have already been transferred to others, and going onto their…

How so? You contract to provide a specific service, not specific code. The contract should be for transfer of a license (of whatever kind) to use the IP and business benefit, not for full transfer of all IP. If a client doesn't pay you respond by denying access to the service - which is exactly the same as a hosting company turning off a server for non-payment of hosting fees. I wouldn't do the fade thing, because wh…

The hosting company turning off a server is merely acting on property they both own and possess.

You "deleting all work from a client's server" are accessing someone else's property, and doing it for destructive purposes. That's illegal, both civilly and criminally. They're not analogous situations.

Even in the physical world, repossession companies may not enter a private building without permission. "Goods are reclaimed" by a sheriff carrying out a court order, not by whoever is owed money breaking in and taking things on their own volition.