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Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

aeon.co

211–220 of 226 posts

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#211
I am tired of the Catholics trying to rewrite history. I got deep into this issue several times.

First, go to the source. We have the documents from Galileo trials, so first, read what was actually said. http://www.tc.umn.edu/~allch001/galileo/library/1616docs.htm Here is the most relevant part:

  Proposition to be assessed:

    (1) The sun is the center of the world and completely 
  devoid of local motion.

    Assessement: All said that this proposition is foolish 
  and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it 
  explicitly contradicts many places the sense of Holy 
  Scripture, according to the literal meaning of the words 
  and according to the common interpretation and 
  understanding of the Holy Fathers and the doctors of 
  theology.

    (2) The earth is not the center of the world, nor 
  motionless, but it moves as a whole and also with diurnal 
  motion.

    Assessment: All said that this proposition receives the 
  same judgement in philosophy and that in regard to 
  theological truth it is at least errouneous in faith.
Here, "philosophy" more or less means science. So, yes, Galileo was criticized on scientific grounds, which is totally fine as indeed, there were some problems with his theory (like the lack of movement of stars).

But Galileo was called an heretic because he contradicted the literal meaning of the bible. "formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts many places the sense of Holy Scripture, according to the literal meaning of the words and according to the common interpretation and understanding of the Holy Fathers and the doctors of theology" : this is your regular creationist saying that the bible has to be interpreted literally and that you are a heretic if you don't. Problem: said creationist can throw you in jail if you don't abide to his worldview.

That's why from this time (from a bit earlier actually) universities found it primordial to gain independence from the clergy and that science and religion diverged from each other.

Is this religious assessment coherent with others? Of course not! Religion is not much about coherency. Copernicus heliocentrism was well accepted by the church as he was less confrontational, richer and more religious.

Did Galileo act like an asshole? Maybe, though church did need some trolling at this time. Was his condemnation political? Most certainly! But the salient point is that the motivation may have been political, the justification was religious. And that was unacceptable to scientists that you could justify dogmatism and rewrite science books for political motives. The refusal of this is what gave us modern science.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#212

> But seen from Earth, stars appear as dots of certain sizes or magnitudes. The only way stars could be so incredibly distant and have such sizes was if they were all incredibly huge, every last one dwarfing the Sun. What?? Oh, Wikipedia fills in some crucially missing info in this hypothesis. > However, early telescopes produced a spurious disk-like image of a star (known today as an Airy disk) that was larger for b…

Thank you so much for this. I was wondering about this so much and it really gnawed on me that the article didn't bother explaining further.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#213

Stupid question: given General Relativity, and in particular that all reference frames are equally valid , including rotating and accelerating ones, in what sense is heliocentrism more 'true' than geocentrism? E.g. you can pick a geocentric reference frame and all the math works out (albeit you'd need to define large fictitious forces, etc., but again, they are only 'fictitious' from the perspective of a different re…

Of all the answers offered here, the only ones that get to the heart of the matter are those that make the distinction between inertial (non-accelerating) frames of reference, and those that rotate (and therefore have at least centripetal acceleration). In Newtonian and post-Newtonian mechanics, only inertial frames are equivalent. A geocentric frame (with a rotating Earth) spins the whole universe once a year; fix the Earth's spin, and you set the universe spinning once a day.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#214

Stupid question: given General Relativity, and in particular that all reference frames are equally valid , including rotating and accelerating ones, in what sense is heliocentrism more 'true' than geocentrism? E.g. you can pick a geocentric reference frame and all the math works out (albeit you'd need to define large fictitious forces, etc., but again, they are only 'fictitious' from the perspective of a different re…

I think the answer is precisely the realization that heliocentrism is a convenient framework for specifying the correct relationships. If one formulated their geocentrism-with-epicycles model to be precisely equivalent to heliocentrism in all physically observable details, just with Earth as the origin to their coordinate system, and acknowledged this equivalence, then that would be perfectly correct as well, albeit…

Is it possible for a geocentric, epicyclic model to get the 3D positions of the solar system bodies approximately correct, as opposed to just their angular motion with respect to Earth?

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#215
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe there are any geocentric claims in scripture. To what scripture are you referring?

To my understanding, its just a number of verses that express things in the same kinds of phrases we use today (e.g., "the sun stood still", "the sun rose").

We still use that language today, knowing full well that Earth orbits the sun.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer is precisely the realization that heliocentrism is a convenient framework for specifying the correct relationships. If one formulated their geocentrism-with-epicycles model to be precisely equivalent to heliocentrism in all physically observable details, just with Earth as the origin to their coordinate system, and acknowledged this equivalence, then that would be perfectly correct as well, albeit…

Is it possible for a geocentric, epicyclic model to get the 3D positions of the solar system bodies approximately correct, as opposed to just their angular motion with respect to Earth?

I cannot edit my post any more , but I can still reply to it, and it seems the answer is yes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVuU2YCwHjw

- but you need eccentricity to get the speeds right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHmjGUxWRAI (10 minutes in.)

Furthermore, the result is not equivalent to the heliocentric model because it has many more parameters.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#218
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Observation: counting teeth. This was before modern dentistry.

Ugh... isn't that what one is supposed to do before making such a claim?

Hell, why didn't he just Google it?

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#219
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, while Aristotle's conclusion was in fact wrong, it was rather scientific for its time. That passage in particular gets mocked a lot, but if you look at the source, you'll note that the conclusion was based on physical observation, even though the accounts he relied upon were demonstrably false: "Males have more teeth than females in the case of men, sheep, goats, and swine; in the case of other…

Thanks for this reply. If you look at the tree of replies to my message you'll see I address several of the issues you raise. In particular, you say, > He got it wrong, but the way he went about getting it wrong is significant. I understand your point but I don't give him a bye for having a rediculously small n , since he was well schooled in inductive reasoning. I have further discussion in other comments so I won't…

> I don't give him a bye for having a rediculously small n, since he was well schooled in inductive reasoning

Really, you're going to fault him for not adhering to the standards of disciplines not invented until thousands of years after his death?

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#220

Stupid question: given General Relativity, and in particular that all reference frames are equally valid , including rotating and accelerating ones, in what sense is heliocentrism more 'true' than geocentrism? E.g. you can pick a geocentric reference frame and all the math works out (albeit you'd need to define large fictitious forces, etc., but again, they are only 'fictitious' from the perspective of a different re…

It's not a stupid question.

General Relativity does not have global frames of reference. Borrowing from Special Relativity, an inertial frame of reference is on in which the Poincaré isometry group applies at every point in the frame of reference, and that means that fundamental physical constants do not change with translations, rotations or Lorentz boosts. That is, as you move back and forth along the spacelike axes, or rotate clockwise or counterclockwise around them, or acquire boosts, or move futureward, some set of constants are invariant; in pure SR the constants are the spacetime intervals -- the distance from one event to another. In the Standard Model of Particle Physics, there are other invariants, such as the fundamental charge and the speed at which a massless particle moves.

Special Relativity is a theory with global inertial frames of reference. General Relativity has no global frames of reference at all, except in the (flat, Minkowski) spacetime of Special Relativity. Instead, GR has the concept of the LIF -- the _locally_ inertial frame -- which exists everywhere in the tightest possible definition of local (specifically, in the local section of the fibre bundle, or in the limit where spacetime intervals go to zero), but only exists in _some_ bigger regions of spacetime (those that are flat -- or at least effectively flat, in the Wilson sense of an effective field theory).

None of this has to do with sets of coordinates; even in SR you can choose among a variety of coordinate systems (e.g., polar coordinates, Cartesian coordinates) and place the coordinate system's origin anywhere. Using different coordinates even in the spacetime of Special Relativity can help focus on aspects of a system under study, and indeed one can even use Rindler coordinates in Special Relativity to consider systems that include acceleration, or more often to treat a uniformly accelerating object as at rest at the coordinates' origin point.

In GR covariance is introduced to express all physical laws in arbitrary coordinates. Arbitrariness here certainly includes systems in which spacelike _coordinate_ distances (or the period of an oscillator) vary with position, or even in which the speed of light _against a set of coordinates_ varies with direction.

The Einstein Field Equations are written in a form that is independent of the choice of coordinates; they stay in that form even under a change of coordinates -- this is the generally covariant form. Newtonian physics, for example, can become much more complicated when you make a change of coordinates -- in this discussion, in dealing with planetary orbits under a change from a sun-centric polar coordinate system, or even a sun-centric Cartesian coordinate system to an Earth-centric system. In General Relativity the same Einstein Field Equation (EFE) form is used.

The calculational price for covariance is high -- the EFEs are ten non-linear partial differential equations. Even today that's heavy calculating. So anywhere one could get a decently correct answer using Special Relativity or Newtonian mechanics, especially where one can make a good choice of coordinates, you'd choose to do that instead. Where bodies move slowly against the chosen coordinates compared to how light moves against the same system of coordinates, and where the distances between massive bodies is large, the errors will be small to negligible.

So, to recap, "Isn't the choice between geocentrism and heliocentrism purely one of convenience, and we can simply pick and choose whichever [coordinate system] is most convenient for calculation purposes?" Yes, essentially, but one has to be wary about artifacts of the coordinate system that vary under a change of coordinates. A classic example involves latitude-longitude coordinates on Earth: there is a coordinate singularity at each pole, but the singularity goes away upon a change of coordinates (e.g. to local East-North-Up coordinates, or ECEF coordinates, or Cartesian coordinates with any number of possible choices of origin). Likewise, epicycles in planetary orbits change or vanish under different systems of coordinates, and so are unphysical.

I changed "reference frame" to "[coordinate system]" there to capture what an observer is doing: laying out an observer-centric set of coordinates. No such set of coordinates is the correct one, but any observer can choose manifestly useless sets of coordinates or draw incorrect conclusions from the motions of objects against one particular set of coordinates (not just what system of coordinates, but also where the origin is).

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