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Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

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Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#271

Post by rayiner »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #178
twblalock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are talking about 5,000 current employees being fired and many employees who were fired for reporting it. If he didn't know, then he must not know other things about Wells Fargo that are equally important. I'm sure that's the case, and I'm sure it's also the case for most CEOs of massive companies. Wells Fargo has more than 250,000 employees and more than 6000 branches -- more branches than any other US bank. T…

Then how does this spread around to all the branches if (way) upper management doesn't know? Does Suzy in Fl really spend her time chatting up Jackie in CA to get the scoop on all the D/L ways to cheat? They have a little IRC channel for duping WF management?

Because some fraction of people are cheaters. Just think of how many people you know who cheated in school. I'd say the number is 10% or higher. Some of those people became CEOs who continued to cheat, but many became low-level bank employees who continued to cheat.

And if you're being measured on how many accounts you create, and the system doesn't have checks to keep people from opening accounts without consent, it's not exactly hard for all the cheaters to figure out what to do. Again, think back to all the ways people cheated in school. You think they had to coordinate to figure out how to cheat?

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#272

Post by rayiner »

DominikR wrote: post #219
maxxxxx wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who can then be held responsible when a big company commits criminal acts? Maybe they should arrest all people who opened those fraudulent accounts. All of them. Maybe that will be a deterrent. But in general a CEO should have a duty to ask questions why a certain division seems to be doing well. Maybe it has to do with earnings targets that are simply unachievable? I see that in my own company. The top guys are sett…

> Who can then be held responsible when a big company commits criminal acts? My opinion: Anyone who took part in it either knowing it is illegal or even if the person should have known it is illegal considering his/her position. Same goes for persons that didn't necessarily know about it but acted negligent or ignored standard procedures that are in place to prevent such a thing. > But in general a CEO should have a…

> My opinion: Anyone who took part in it either knowing it is illegal or even if the person should have known it is illegal considering his/her position.

As a general rule, we don't hold people criminally liable for simple negligence.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#273

Post by cholantesh »

empthought wrote: post #184
vertex-four wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, there is indeed a strong strain of anti-capitalist thought in radical feminism; it surprises me that you don't know this. I moderate a handful of self-titled "social justice warrior" chatrooms, which are full of everyone from libertarian socialists to anarcho-communists. I'm reasonably aware of various strands of feminism. I've been having a discussion on the morality of sex work for much of today. Sex wor…

Again you are misrepresenting my position; it's not that "sex work" is somehow more immoral than other work, it's that the purchase of sex is immoral, shameful, and frankly, pathetic. It has nothing to do with capitalism vs. anarchism or anything else. Even under capitalism, purchasing e.g. food for your family that was somehow acquired under coercive circumstances is still less shameful than purchasing e.g. diamonds…

>it's not that "sex work" is somehow more immoral than other work, it's that the purchase of sex is immoral, shameful, and frankly, pathetic

It's morally acceptable to sell a service but not to purchase it? That's asinine.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#274

Post by makomk »

empthought wrote: post #167
vertex-four wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the question. Slavery is immoral because it's immoral to curtail the rights of people indefinitely. Which rights does consensual sex work curtail?

The right of a person to not have sexual access to their body be reduced to the object of purchase with the purpose to gratify a person who holds economic power over them. Purchasing sex is an abuse of power. This isn't really an opt-out right; surely there are people who would "consent" to situations of slavery or apartheid. This doesn't mean we should make those things legal.

Which is to say, it's about imposing morality. You want to force these people into options they've already decided are worse than having sex for money because you're more comfortable with them earning money that way, and your moral judgement is more important than their freedom.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#275

Post by twblalock »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #178
twblalock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are talking about 5,000 current employees being fired and many employees who were fired for reporting it. If he didn't know, then he must not know other things about Wells Fargo that are equally important. I'm sure that's the case, and I'm sure it's also the case for most CEOs of massive companies. Wells Fargo has more than 250,000 employees and more than 6000 branches -- more branches than any other US bank. T…

Then how does this spread around to all the branches if (way) upper management doesn't know? Does Suzy in Fl really spend her time chatting up Jackie in CA to get the scoop on all the D/L ways to cheat? They have a little IRC channel for duping WF management?

Making fake accounts is a pretty obvious solution to increasing cross-selling numbers. I'm sure almost all of the branch employees thought about it, but only some actually did it.

You get what you measure. You measure account creation, you'll get account creation. You measure legitimate account creation, and it's a different ballgame.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#276

Post by DominikR »

rayiner wrote: post #272
DominikR wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who can then be held responsible when a big company commits criminal acts? My opinion: Anyone who took part in it either knowing it is illegal or even if the person should have known it is illegal considering his/her position. Same goes for persons that didn't necessarily know about it but acted negligent or ignored standard procedures that are in place to prevent such a thing. > But in general a CEO should have a…

> My opinion: Anyone who took part in it either knowing it is illegal or even if the person should have known it is illegal considering his/her position. As a general rule, we don't hold people criminally liable for simple negligence.

I did not say "simple" negligence, that is determined by others who know the specifics of this case.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#277

Post by rayiner »

DominikR wrote: post #276
rayiner wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My opinion: Anyone who took part in it either knowing it is illegal or even if the person should have known it is illegal considering his/her position. As a general rule, we don't hold people criminally liable for simple negligence.

I did not say "simple" negligence, that is determined by others who know the specifics of this case.

Criminal law makes a distinction between gross negligence (locking the doors to a busy club so people can't get out which then catches on fire and kills everyone), and ordinary negligence (securing a heavy thing in the air with just a knot that falls and kills someone). Even if someone "should have known," that is almost never enough for criminal liability.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#279

Post by gscott »

danielweber wrote: post #234
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how does this spread around to all the branches if (way) upper management doesn't know? Does Suzy in Fl really spend her time chatting up Jackie in CA to get the scoop on all the D/L ways to cheat? They have a little IRC channel for duping WF management?

Have you ever had a job? Have you ever had management insist upon some stupid metric or some deadline that just could not be met and they refused to hear about it? People had to open new accounts or lose their jobs. Some people opened fake accounts to accomplish this. When they were found out, they were fired. Sounds like a horrible place to work, but the firings were proof that management didn't want this to happen,…

This is not quite right. They were pressured by managers to open fake accounts, fired for not making quotas if not, fired if they reported the practice, and then all fired once the government finds out and it blows up. Of course the senior management plays dumb and keeps their jobs.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#280

Post by DominikR »

rayiner wrote: post #277
DominikR wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not say "simple" negligence, that is determined by others who know the specifics of this case.

Criminal law makes a distinction between gross negligence (locking the doors to a busy club so people can't get out which then catches on fire and kills everyone), and ordinary negligence (securing a heavy thing in the air with just a knot that falls and kills someone). Even if someone "should have known," that is almost never enough for criminal liability.

Thanks I know, I said that I don't know the specifics and that others (lawyers) will have to decide on that.
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