Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges • Hacker News Board

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#71

Post by empthought » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 5:49 AM UTC

suneilp wrote: post #69

empthought wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one should feel shame at having a toilet at the office and needing to pay someone to help clean it. Everyone should feel shame at coercing a person who would otherwise not have sex with them into having sex with them. Buying someone's labor is different than buying their bodily autonomy and consent to sex.

This sounds more like a moral judgement. Labor is labor, you don't get to redefine labor just because it involves an action which is very controversial. What really matters is the safety of the person(s) involved. And yet, there are plenty of occupations where safety is in question.

It is precisely a moral judgement. Moral judgements are a human responsibility.

The question is whether or not we want to be a society that views people's bodies and sexual access to them as a commodity to be bought and sold. I find it baffling that anyone would laud this condition after giving it a few moments of compassionate reflection.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#72

Post by barrkel » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 5:58 AM UTC

empthought wrote: post #67

Dylan16807 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's not shameful to force someone to perform manual labor without their consent? Why not?

Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. (Community service is an alternative to jail, for example.) Coerced sex is rape, however. It is qualitatively different from coerced labor. As Dworkin wrote a long time ago, "in prostitution, no woman stays whole. It is impossible to use a human body in the way women's bodies are used in prostitution and to have a whole human being at the end of it, or in the middle of it, or clo…

It's condescending to women to tell them that what they choose to do with their bodies is not their free choice. It's deeply patronising and actually an anti female argument.

I think the actual moral problem with commercial sex is that it commodifies something that some people see as sacred. I think it turns on one's view of government as moral guardian vs individual liberty. Governments aren't usually very good moral actors, which is why we usually limit their moral policing.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#73

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 5:59 AM UTC

gregpilling wrote: post #39

tessierashpool wrote: post #20

FWIW, this headline is not completely accurate. The story itself says further down the page, "Ferrer was arrested on felony charges of pimping a minor, pimping, and conspiracy to commit pimping." None of these are actually trafficking charges; they're run-of-the-mill prostitution charges. There's also a story from a young girl who was forced into sex work, which is certainly awful, and some stuff about studies and cl…

and it was based on a few reports of minors, who paid for ads on backpage.com, and that the sin was backpage.com took their money and should have known they were minors somehow. Out of millions of ads posted annually, they should have known that those three women were underage. Even after they checked the "I am 18" box. Bad backpage. Or maybe someone is trying to get headlines on how they are tough on crime. Because…

[deleted]

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#74

Post by shubhamjain » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 6:03 AM UTC

ckarmann wrote: post #64

rayiner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The CEO of a small internet company almost certainly has a hand in everything the company does. The CEO of a large corporation has no idea what the line workers are doing.[1] If a bunch of Yahoo employees had gone off and run as sex-trafficking site off Yahoo's servers, they wouldn't go arrest Marissa Mayer. Not because "lobbying" but because that would be stupid and unreasonable.…

When there's a couple of rogue employees I can understand. When there are millions of fraudulent accounts it starts to look like a policy or at least criminal neglicence. And there are also the companies that are convinced of fraud like Deutsche Bank, but it's the company that pays a huge fine when the executives who were overseeing all this go unscathed. I have worked in a bank and I know a lot of people there have…

I think it somewhat boils down to intention. In the case of Wells Fargo, opening fraudulent accounts couldn't have accrued any benefit for the bank. It seems more likely that it would have increased overall cost for the company. Yes, the fraud is attributable to stressing too much on reaching an upselling goal, but it's hard to imagine it's a thing that CEO would have wanted. Should we start punishing people for managerial oversight?

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#75

Post by empthought » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 6:05 AM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #72

empthought wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. (Community service is an alternative to jail, for example.) Coerced sex is rape, however. It is qualitatively different from coerced labor. As Dworkin wrote a long time ago, "in prostitution, no woman stays whole. It is impossible to use a human body in the way women's bodies are used in prostitution and to have a whole human being at the end of it, or in the middle of it, or clo…

It's condescending to women to tell them that what they choose to do with their bodies is not their free choice. It's deeply patronising and actually an anti female argument. I think the actual moral problem with commercial sex is that it commodifies something that some people see as sacred. I think it turns on one's view of government as moral guardian vs individual liberty. Governments aren't usually very good mora…

If it was their free choice, they wouldn't need to be paid for it, and they could be as selective or as indiscriminate as they like with partner selection and frequency. It's not about anything sacred (unless you consider basic human rights sacred, I guess).

But don't take my word for it, take former sex workers' word for it: http://www.educating-voices.com

This is feminism 101 stuff; even if you want to take the "choice feminism" side of the debate, you need to learn the basics of radical feminist critiques and positions on the issue.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#76

Post by inferiorhuman » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 6:05 AM UTC

shubhamjain wrote: post #74

ckarmann wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there's a couple of rogue employees I can understand. When there are millions of fraudulent accounts it starts to look like a policy or at least criminal neglicence. And there are also the companies that are convinced of fraud like Deutsche Bank, but it's the company that pays a huge fine when the executives who were overseeing all this go unscathed. I have worked in a bank and I know a lot of people there have…

I think it somewhat boils down to intention. In the case of Wells Fargo, opening fraudulent accounts couldn't have accrued any benefit for the bank. It seems more likely that it would have increased overall cost for the company. Yes, the fraud is attributable to stressing too much on reaching an upselling goal, but it's hard to imagine it's a thing that CEO would have wanted. Should we start punishing people for mana…

My understanding is that the multiple accounts were an end run around the per-account limits on various fees.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#77

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 6:07 AM UTC

shubhamjain wrote: post #74

ckarmann wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there's a couple of rogue employees I can understand. When there are millions of fraudulent accounts it starts to look like a policy or at least criminal neglicence. And there are also the companies that are convinced of fraud like Deutsche Bank, but it's the company that pays a huge fine when the executives who were overseeing all this go unscathed. I have worked in a bank and I know a lot of people there have…

I think it somewhat boils down to intention. In the case of Wells Fargo, opening fraudulent accounts couldn't have accrued any benefit for the bank. It seems more likely that it would have increased overall cost for the company. Yes, the fraud is attributable to stressing too much on reaching an upselling goal, but it's hard to imagine it's a thing that CEO would have wanted. Should we start punishing people for mana…

[deleted]

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#78

Post by barrkel » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 6:08 AM UTC

empthought wrote: post #75

barrkel wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's condescending to women to tell them that what they choose to do with their bodies is not their free choice. It's deeply patronising and actually an anti female argument. I think the actual moral problem with commercial sex is that it commodifies something that some people see as sacred. I think it turns on one's view of government as moral guardian vs individual liberty. Governments aren't usually very good mora…

If it was their free choice, they wouldn't need to be paid for it, and they could be as selective or as indiscriminate as they like with partner selection and frequency. It's not about anything sacred (unless you consider basic human rights sacred, I guess). But don't take my word for it, take former sex workers' word for it: http://www.educating-voices.com This is feminism 101 stuff; even if you want to take the "ch…

Your argument hinges on the idea that exchange is inherently coercive. I don't buy it.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#79

Post by imtringued » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 6:10 AM UTC

empthought wrote: post #60

anon12345690 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a strange definition of "coercing" This isnt rape, it's just paying for an exchange. If a person doesn't want to use their body, they're free not to. Manual labor also involves using your body with wear and tear, it's not that different or special.

If that's the fiction you need to tell yourself to avoid feeling shame at condoning the use of prostitutes, I guess I can't really stop you.

The sex workers don't care about your morals. They have different morals than you and care about different things. Stop telling them and other people what morals they should have.

Regulated prostitution may be bad in your eyes but unregulated prostitution is even worse for those who are already in this industry.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

Re: Backpage Raided, CEO Arrested on Sex-Trafficking Charges

#80

Post by TAForObvReasons » Fri, Oct 07, 2016, 6:10 AM UTC

shubhamjain wrote: post #74

ckarmann wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there's a couple of rogue employees I can understand. When there are millions of fraudulent accounts it starts to look like a policy or at least criminal neglicence. And there are also the companies that are convinced of fraud like Deutsche Bank, but it's the company that pays a huge fine when the executives who were overseeing all this go unscathed. I have worked in a bank and I know a lot of people there have…

I think it somewhat boils down to intention. In the case of Wells Fargo, opening fraudulent accounts couldn't have accrued any benefit for the bank. It seems more likely that it would have increased overall cost for the company. Yes, the fraud is attributable to stressing too much on reaching an upselling goal, but it's hard to imagine it's a thing that CEO would have wanted. Should we start punishing people for mana…

> opening fraudulent accounts couldn't have accrued any benefit for the bank

Actually, in the hearing Senator Warren tried to connect the fraudulent accounts to the stock price, which would have been a direct benefit for the bank:

> You squeezed your employees to the breaking point so they would cheat customers and you could drive up the value of your stock and put hundreds of millions of dollars in your own pocket. And when it all blew up, you kept your job, you kept your multimillion-dollar bonuses and you went on television to blame thousands of $12-an-hour employees.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/business/wells-fargo-tests...