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A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

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Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#201
post #183
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If psychologists were educated properly to be scientists, they'd abandon psychology, which is at best an art.

I agree with Dr. Srivastava that psychology is not only a science but the hardest science: https://hardsci.wordpress.com/2009/03/14/making-progress-in-... > What are the “hard” — as in difficult — problems in science? Hard problems in science are those that are embedded in complex systems; they are hard because to study something well you often need to isolate it from outside influences. Hard problems are those that…

That quote still fails to show why psychology should be considered a science. It only speaks about the difficulty of problems in science.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#202
Remember when writers could do spell-checking and grammar-checking by "running a program" on their text files?

Here we have numbers-checking working the same way.

I bet you this sort of feature gets built in to word processors eventually, and puts wavy red lines under the results it flags.

We've had this sort of real-time "syntax" checking in software engineering for half a generation. It seems wise for other disciplines to consider adopting it too.

It's obviously got to be discretionary, just like spell-check is discretionary in browsers.

We will get a new genre of humor, thought "statcheck fail."

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#203
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As it should be, when you publish a stupid error that can substantially alter your conclusions.

I'm not sure that's the healthiest attitude. The pursuit here is knowledge , not prestige. Getting personal doesn't do anything for the higher goal. I read once that the attitude in NASA over Space Shuttle code was very focused not on who wrote the bug, but how to fix the bug. The thought was that who caused the failure was not nearly as important as preventing the failure, as "failure" in that context generally mean…

Of course it turned out that NASA's two biggest failures were human/cultural, and which led to the loss of two shuttles. Besides, as you say it's not about prestige, it's about knowledge, and if you're publishing something with basic math errors, it leads to questions about whether you'd know "knowledge" if it bit you.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#204
post #183
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If psychologists were educated properly to be scientists, they'd abandon psychology, which is at best an art.

I agree with Dr. Srivastava that psychology is not only a science but the hardest science: https://hardsci.wordpress.com/2009/03/14/making-progress-in-... > What are the “hard” — as in difficult — problems in science? Hard problems in science are those that are embedded in complex systems; they are hard because to study something well you often need to isolate it from outside influences. Hard problems are those that…

In what way does any of that support your/Srivastava's assertion?

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if? Does that negate the results?

Oh no not at all! The results are still solid. So, "ploy" isn't the right word, not really. "Stunt"? "Technique"? I was just thinking - They could have found a way to email or otherwise contact the authors, instead of just posting comments, but posting comments (and getting some news on it) drives more traffic due to scandal effects. This rabbit hole can go deeper - what if private disclosure was expected to backfire…

If I use software and there's a bug, I don't want to find out years later when the author decided to admit it, I want to find out right away so I can get it patched. Papers are equivalent to code, if I'm developing something based on one I want to know if the foundation is reliable or not.

> what if private disclosure was expected to backfire?

Well of course it could be expected to go badly. Look at all the "concern" spent over their methods already.

But yes, it would have been interesting if they had contacted authors quietly and without telling them their methods, simply to see who updated their paper and who tried to blame the messenger... Then publish that list and let the field really correct itself.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#206
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If these are attitudes typical of psychology, then I cannot say I consider psychology to be a proper social science. In my experience, such attitudes are typical. Here's a 2014 paper by a Harvard psychology professor who tries to argue that null replication results shouldn't be taken seriously because the failure to replicate ipso facto indicts the study's methods: http://jasonmitchell.fas.harvard.edu/Papers/Mitche…

> Someone who publishes a replication is, in effect, saying something like,“You found an effect. I did not. One of us is the inferior scientist.” Wow... I really don't see it like that.

I agree with you. When Two scientists find different results only inferior scientists would take it as a personal attack.

There was a story about two chemists, I might have some minor details wrong, but that shouldn't hurt this anecdote because something like this happened back when chemistry was still raw and new. The going wisdom was based on the assumption that the atoms in a molecule were the only thing that determined its properties. These two scientists were having trouble replicating each others results when working with a molecule of 2 Carbon, 2 Nitrogen, 2 Oxygen and 1 Mercury atoms.

One describe it as inert and the other as explosive. Neither bothered to include synthesis steps in their papers and each thought the other was wrong. Rather than insult they swapped more and more information until eventually each confirmed that we dealing with a molecule with identical parts, but different properties.

They had discovered that molecules have structure. One arrangement was Mercury Fulminate an unstable explosive used in primers and detonators today and the other was really inert and not of interest, to me at least.

Any scientist who argues with the concept of "disagreement based on evidence" is arguing a foundation of science. They should be looking for evidence of reasons for that disagreement instead of quibbling over personal attacks and defense.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People are not supposed to communicate only via papers. A paper and its supplementary materials are supposed to be enough to reproduce the experiment. In practice, this often fails, but that is a fault in the scientific process. Science isn't just about empirical knowledge, it's about public and redundant empirical knowledge, as opposed to losing important knowledge of the natural world when the original investigato…

Wouldn't those problems in the scientific process get corrected more easily if you contacted the original author to see if there are any details that were missed and then publish those details with your results instead of just publishing a paper that says "Nope, couldn't reproduce"?

No, you publish the results that you cannot reproduce.

Then maybe the next generation of researchers documents their work better.

Or maybe the original researcher publishes a v2 edition of their paper.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#208
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source the code and supporting data.

It's not that simple. What if some of it is proprietary? What if I'm not allowed to submit code because I need to be anonymous so reviewers can maintain impartiality? What happens when one of the upstreams update and breaks my code? Do I need to keep it updated? Forever?

Then your results are not reproducible and your conclusion is suspect.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#210
post #34

> and whether online critiques of past work constitute “bullying” or shaming. The PubPeer comments are just a tiny part of that debate. But it can hit a nerve. > Susan Fiske, a former president of the Association for Psychological Science, alluded to Statcheck in an interview with Business Insider, calling it a “gotcha algorithm.” > The draft of the article said these online critics were engaging in “methodological t…

Don't judge a science by looking at just a few of the people in it...

Also to say i think it's a graded thing. Often such type of critique might be serious and well developed, often it might be serious but based on misunderstanding, and sometimes it might be an attempt at trolling, annoying or payback. I would guess your average peer reviewer engages more deeply with the paper than most readers and takes time to check their critique before sending it, and since there's an editor involved there might also be a better level of politeness. If now suddenly every reader is free to criticise (assuming they fall in category 1 & 2) that can end up in a barrage of critiques that an author might feel obliged to respond to in order to protect his/her reputation. And still those critiques can then be taken out of context, eg when someone in the media or from the competition tries to put you down a notch for holding the wrong views...

Think of anti-vaxers going around and criticising every paper on vaccines. You're always going to find something to criticise and once it's criticised you can point to SG authoritative 'the paper is criticised by other scientists for..'

Or another angle: do you want to feel obligated to defend every one of your papers for the rest of your life?

This can really feel like bullying even if it's not intended as such. That's in particular if you write about contentious issues or such with strong interest groups - think vaccines, abortion, gender, GMO, lobbying, financial regulation, inequality, race, ...

I think open 'peer review/critique' is a good idea, but it can take dark turns if there's no mechanism to prevent this.

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