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Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

nytimes.com

161–170 of 265 posts

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#161
post #11

Big factories can be retrofitted in times of world war to build tanks/guns/etc. It's seen as a national security thing.

Two more national security reasons:

1. There is the problem of depending on potential enemies (all others have potential to be enemies) for goods that are critical to the military and/or general economy. Suppliers can threaten to cut supplies. Note that this can happen even if actual shooting war is unlikely; the threat to cut supplies is a brutal negotiating tactic that can block us diplomatically. For example, if we depended on Russia, they could demand that we support the Syrian government.

2. Lots of physical things contain computer chips. He who builds them is in control. Remember when France gave the UK some secret codes to make Argentina's missiles (purchased from France) fail. It's not just military equipment. Consider your Ethernet card and/or motherboard chipset. It could include a hardware debugger with full memory access, controlled by magic packets. What happens when we can only get those from government-owned Chinese companies? What about modern computerized farm equipment that phones home for licensing? If that were foreign, could a foreign power disable our farm equipment at a key time, causing us to face food shortages?

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#162
> From an economic perspective, however, there can be no revival of American manufacturing, because there has been no collapse. Because of automation, there are far fewer jobs in factories. But the value of stuff made in America reached a record high in the first quarter of 2016, even after adjusting for inflation. The present moment, in other words, is the most productive in the nation’s history.

Pay no attention to the top % - that reaps all that benefit of that automation, and widening the wealth disparity chasm - behind the curtain.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#164
>Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

Because when the shit comes to shove and the global economy takes a nosedive or your previous friendly third world manufactures give you the finger, having a "service industry" is worth nothing, but being able to produce the actual shit your businesses design and sell/export, matters.

Of course for the US this might be less so, because they can always force, by diplomacy or might, those developing world manufacturers to comply.

Another question would be why are people like the author of the article not particularly hot for manufacturing?

Because they are upper middle class pundits, have worked all their lives in the culture/media/academic etc industries, and could not care less for lost manufacturing jobs and other such stuff.

That's how we get books about the world being flat, industry doesn't matter, it's all "information" and "creativity" now, from people that could not suffer a day without electricity (and the hard work that goes into producing it), or without their car, etc.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#165
post #35

Politicians are amateurs. I don't mean that in a pejorative way. Politicians are experts at politics, they can achieve consensus in seemingly impossible circumstances. If you pick a random politician, and ask them to design a transmission, or perform open heart surgery, they'd do as poorly as you or me. Yes, there are politicians from all walks of life, and you can probably find a surgeon politician. In general, the…

>Politicians are amateurs.

That's what's great about them, because they are there to represent us, and we're all, in most fields other than ours, amateurs.

And also because most experts on economy and industry have private interests to take care off and force upon the rest.

(Well, those private interests also buy politicians, yes, but they always start by buying or directly employing experts).

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#166
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrast a politician with a juror. There's no real reason for a juror to focus on anything but the case at hand. They don't have a career as a juror to pursue, yet they're expected to learn about things relevant to the case. There's almost no personal incentives involved (which also happens to be heavily policed) besides scheduling. Now, a politician generally does things to further their political career. They don'…

Vaguely related, It would be really interesting to see a government try juries for legislation. Let representatives do everything they normally do but vote. A jury selected from voters in proportion to representatives is convened. The bill sponsors and opponents make their case to the jury. The jury votes. It might be an unmitigated disaster. But, it would be interesting.

>Vaguely related, It would be really interesting to see a government try juries for legislation.

That -- random selection -- was the original, and more advanced than ours, conception of democracy. Not for all posts, mind you.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#167

> Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? Because when the shit comes to shove and the global economy takes a nosedive or your previous friendly third world manufactures give you the finger, having a "service industry" is worth nothing, but being able to produce the actual shit your businesses design and sell/export, matters. Of course for the US this might be less so, because they can always force, by di…

"Service industry" includes financial services, which have been hugely lucrative to the West.

It's a globally integrated supply chain, and cannot be otherwise. There is no way countries are going back to a blast-furnace-to-car vertically integrated manufacturing world. It costs far too much and you couldn't even do it back when Ford tried it. He needed to import rubber, modern cars need to import chips.

The only non-globalised manufacturing chain is defence, which is instead prohibitively expensive.

Manufacturing is popular because it's percieved as a source of blue-collar jobs. Not only has that declined due to automation, but I think that one of the reasons for the decline in Western manufacturing in the first place was union-busting and labour relations issues. Part of the reason Germany has retained its manufacturing reputation is avoiding that failure mode.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#168
post #35

Politicians are amateurs. I don't mean that in a pejorative way. Politicians are experts at politics, they can achieve consensus in seemingly impossible circumstances. If you pick a random politician, and ask them to design a transmission, or perform open heart surgery, they'd do as poorly as you or me. Yes, there are politicians from all walks of life, and you can probably find a surgeon politician. In general, the…

>and they should probably be handled by experts That experiment was tried in Soviet Union. How did that end?

Just because something ended badly one place doesn't mean the idea was bad. We have "expert" witnesses, some of whom have very little expertise. That's bad. Being corrupt and getting 'experts' in office or firing 'experts' if they don't provide a politically correct answer? Bad.

But it is a lot harder for me to argue that basing healthcare or even health and safety policies on the advice of physicians and scientists is bad. If we are revamping the tax code, it might do us well both to look at how tax code compliance is in different countries at different rates - and also talk to psychiatrists and psycologists to help set it up in a way that gets the most compliance. Talk to poverty experts to see what tax codes could hurt the poor and work on ways to solve that.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#169
post #35

Politicians are amateurs. I don't mean that in a pejorative way. Politicians are experts at politics, they can achieve consensus in seemingly impossible circumstances. If you pick a random politician, and ask them to design a transmission, or perform open heart surgery, they'd do as poorly as you or me. Yes, there are politicians from all walks of life, and you can probably find a surgeon politician. In general, the…

How do we fix this? Here's an idea - direct democracy where one can only vote on a topic that he/she has proven a minimal set of competence in. This could be in the form of an exam on a topic (eg. economics) and/or logic test. The goal is that one should not be allowed to vote on something like climate change without knowing the science and data behind climate change. We need to acknowledge that the world is too comp…

Corruption is one of those things that probably isn't going away any time soon: It isn't just a plague on politicians, but other areas of life as well. Businesses, etc.

And unfortunately, you have to have someone produce those voting tests. How do you think they will get their positions? Do you think that the tests in states such as Utah will have the same sort of things as tests in California or Vermont? In your version of the system, the politicians have simply changed professions.

Besides, there is actual need for politicians at this point (the AI still seems pretty far out). It is good to have someone to organize large infrastructure projects, good to have folks handle money and dividing it up, overseeing military operations - and it is good to have folks outside some of the industries asking questions and learning and trying different solutions.

Corruption itself won't go away any time soon: The best we've been able to do is minimize it.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#170
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing also provides jobs for both high and low skill workers. As such can be seen as more valuable to a community than say, a software company that only hires engineers and a CS center in a different state. Manufacturing was one of the best roads for a low skill worker to earn good money and move up the rung economically - something that only seems to be getting harder as time goes on.

Then again, software is one of the few industries where you can do quite well without a formal degree or license. This makes it unusually open to the uncredentialed, if not the unskilled.

Define "unskilled". I would say that even if software developer does not have a degree he or she still needs to be quite smart.

Now imagine typical blue collar worker having IQ below 100, who dropped from high school (as they often do) learning advanced technical concepts like network protocols, dozen of JS frameworks, not to mention higher order functions and macros.

That's the issue with technical advancements: there are more and more jobs for people with high IQ and vast knowledge, and less and less jobs for people who can only work with their muscles, not brains.

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