Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#111

Post by Inconel » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:05 AM UTC

rfrank wrote: post #18

hueving wrote: post #4

Manufacturing is a target because it's easy for people to see concrete results. They can point at something and say, "we made that", and it tends to generate some sense of pride. The same doesn't really apply for service industries or innovation in the service industries: "we produced consumer surplus by lowering transportation costs via automation" doesn't roll off the tongue as well. :) The same problem exists for…

Manufacturing also provides jobs for both high and low skill workers. As such can be seen as more valuable to a community than say, a software company that only hires engineers and a CS center in a different state. Manufacturing was one of the best roads for a low skill worker to earn good money and move up the rung economically - something that only seems to be getting harder as time goes on.

You make a very important point with regards to manufacturing providing jobs for both high and low skill workers. I would add that it can also be a very good way to go from being a low skill worker to becoming a high skill worker on the job, meaning that you are being paid while improving your skills. If you're already poor and don't have any particular skills, it can be extremely difficult to improve upon your situation while trying to make enough money to survive. Many times additional schooling, either at the college/university or trade school/community college level, are out of reach, or at least made much more difficult, once you've already worked a 40-50 hour week.

I work as a technician in aerospace and when I started I had zero experience in this type of manufacturing environment. If I hadn't gotten the opportunity to improve upon my skills while on the job I would most likely still be stuck in a much lower paid and less satisfactory low end retail or service job.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#112

Post by rayiner » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:10 AM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #83

rayiner wrote: post #14

There is a lot more dignity of work in manufacturing. You're not servicing some old person who can afford to have a home health aid--you're making a product for people to buy (including other people like you).

I can't understand. Helping a fellow human being who is too weak to care for herself is almost the definition of dignity to me. It may be dirty work, but there's nothing more important. In contrast, the manufacturing job turns you into a pre-programmed cog in a big machine that consumes substantial amounts of natural resources to produce something that will most likely end up in the junk heap in a couple of years. Wh…

Dignity of work doesn't have anything to do with importance. It's about power relationships: vendors are in a different relationship with their customers than service workers are with the people they serve.

In Manhattan, a nanny probably makes more than a journalist--but is there any comparison in which job is more dignified?

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#113

Post by Animats » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:21 AM UTC

jcranmer wrote: post #93

Animats wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the US table of employment by category.[1] (I keep mentioning this table in discussions of employment.) 14% of the workforce makes all the stuff. That's manufacturing, mining, construction, and agriculture. 14%. US manufacturing employment peaked in 1979. Manufacturing output is at peak now. That 14% number was about 50% in 1950, and maybe 90% in 1900. That's how much things have changed. As for imports, China…

Manufacturing employment can't be 90% in 1900--agricultural employment certainly would have dominated. The 50% of 1950 also seems high. According to " rel="nofollow">https://www.minnpost.com/macro-micro-minnesota/2012/02/histo... , manufacturing employment peaked at about 35% in 1950s. In 1900, it was around 25%, with services about 33% and the rest in agriculture. That graph has services employment always outpacing…

I meant agriculture, mining, construction, and manufacturing - the making of physical stuff. All that is only about 14% today. Not sure what the Minn Post's definition of "industry" is.

(Correct MinnPost link: https://www.minnpost.com/macro-micro-minnesota/2012/02/histo...)

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#114

Post by jdietrich » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:25 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #51

macspoofing wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Service can literally be created out of thin air. Not really. It's built on manufacturing base. You need to 'service' something.

Lots of service are personal services (the thing you are servicing is the customer), and categories of personal service expand and contract with, essentially, fashion. Service can literally be created out of thin air.

Personal trainers, nail artists, psychotherapists, tour guides, social media consultants, maids, window cleaners, YouTubers, Mariachi bands, pet groomers, translators, golf instructors...

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#115

Post by JBReefer » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:42 AM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #94

guyzero wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plus side of service economies is that they're a lot harder to outsource - you can't open a Manilla call-center to handle a nursing home.

You can bring in h1b nurses for half pay.

That's not how that system works

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#116

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:42 AM UTC

They're not, but the demographic they need to appeal to is, and it's not clear how to sell people on capitalism in an age of diminishing labor requirements. Capitalism as we know it is almost over; there is no rational reason for people to starve while a tiny minority accumulates all the capital. History tells us that once enough people figure out that they've got no prospects they'll gang up on the elite, kill them, and attempt to redistribute the spoils.

I'm not being hyperbolic, I expect western-style democracy to collapse within the next 10-20 years.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#117

Post by yakult » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:45 AM UTC

>According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there were 64,000 steelworkers in America last year, and 820,000 home health aides — more than double the population of Pittsburgh. Next year, there will be fewer steelworkers and still more home health aides, as baby boomers fade into old age. Soon, we will be living in the United States of Home Health Aides, yet the candidates keep talking about steelworkers.

I'm picking up a sort of 'gamers are dead' vibe from all this. I wonder if the media considers Gamergate a sort of success story and template for future political discourse? The argument would be that the issues faced by outgroup demographic X are not real, because outgroup demographic X is dying anyway, and is being replaced by ingroup demographic Y, and is also full of misogynists and/or racists and/or basement dwellers and/or rednecks and/or Trump voters.

As supporting evidence, I will note the author just casually slipped in there that steel workers are all white men while service workers are mostly women.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#118

Post by sjg007 » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:49 AM UTC

hasbroslasher wrote: post #76

golergka wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> actively resisted it Honest question. Is this a reality or a degrading stereotype?

Yes, it is real. I'm from a small town in Montana with a strong timber industry presence, and loads of people stick around, largely because their parents want them to stay or because they don't want to leave everything they know. Often times, there's no choice because the kids didn't do well enough to go to "coastal school," nor could they or their parents afford it if they did. People from cities exhibit this kind o…

Kids on the coast can inherit their families now $1m house... Meanwhile those that move are forced to save and save and maybe get lucky to buy a house.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#119

Post by rfrank » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:51 AM UTC

Inconel wrote: post #111

rfrank wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing also provides jobs for both high and low skill workers. As such can be seen as more valuable to a community than say, a software company that only hires engineers and a CS center in a different state. Manufacturing was one of the best roads for a low skill worker to earn good money and move up the rung economically - something that only seems to be getting harder as time goes on.

You make a very important point with regards to manufacturing providing jobs for both high and low skill workers. I would add that it can also be a very good way to go from being a low skill worker to becoming a high skill worker on the job, meaning that you are being paid while improving your skills. If you're already poor and don't have any particular skills, it can be extremely difficult to improve upon your situa…

Definitely, the on-the-job training aspect of a manufacturing job is huge, and there's just so much knowledge that's hard to pass on in a set of standards and best practices. Agreed on all points about skill development & continued education when you're poor. It strikes me as one of the harder problems to fix when it comes to mobility/inequality as the economy changes.

You sound a lot like me professionally haha. I had the same level of experience when I started at the EMS provider I'm with, just doing CAD library stuff and learning as much as I could when requests were light. Graduated to helping out with bits of full board designs like routing/placement, then graduated to full boards eventually. Having both a design team and SMT lines in the back to learn from is invaluable experience that's hard to recreate.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#120

Post by chiaro » Thu, Oct 06, 2016, 2:59 AM UTC

philipkglass wrote: post #60

madengr wrote: post #40

Why can't I buy a toaster made in the USA, even if it is off a highly automated line? Because it's still cheaper to make in manually in China. Even if it's automated, it will still be cheaper to automate it in China.

Does this help? http://www.b4usa.com/tag/toaster/ I've bought quite a few things made in the USA (or other countries with decent worker and environmental protections, like Italy, Germany, Japan...) that other people seem to usually get from China. Anecdotally, I've noticed that people who will talk about how Grandma's toaster or washing machine lasted forever and it's a shame you can't buy something like that today a…

Yeah, on the other hand prices really have dropped much more than quality. I'm ten years strong on a toaster I picked up from Target for (and I can remember this, for some reason) $12.