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Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#81

Post by jordanb »

steven777400 wrote: post #19

The memory is that these old factory/manufacturing jobs were high paying (middle class), secure, and accessible to people of low intellect, minimal education, and limited social grace. The proposed replacements "caregivers, retail workers and customer-service representatives" are significantly lower wage and also require more "EQ" that the working man of the prior generation didn't need. The voters these politicians…

You make some good points but I think you go a little off the rails with the social commentary.

The truth is that wages a worker can earn are bounded at the top by how much value they add. If they are paid more than the value they create they'll be fired (unless they're executives).

A manufacturing line can produce millions of dollars of value with a few dozen workers. This means if the workers organize properly and if they're not undermined by foreign competition then they can potentially capture a lot of value and have high incomes.

The "service" jobs that are replacing them add much less value. A caregiver can only work with one person at a time, and maybe six or eight in a workday. That guarantees the job will be low wage or not done at all.

Our economy used to produce jobs by the tens of millions where an average guy with average ability and a willingness to endure hard work and monotony could buy a house, raise a family, go on the annual vacation to Niagara Falls or the Grand Canyon, have his wife work as much or as little as she wants and eventually retire comfortably. The economy doesn't produce these jobs anymore.

Now we have jobs that are still well compensated but comparatively small in number and highly specialized or jobs that are not and can not provide wages to live the lives people used to have.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#83

Post by pavlov »

rayiner wrote: post #14

There is a lot more dignity of work in manufacturing. You're not servicing some old person who can afford to have a home health aid--you're making a product for people to buy (including other people like you).

I can't understand. Helping a fellow human being who is too weak to care for herself is almost the definition of dignity to me. It may be dirty work, but there's nothing more important.

In contrast, the manufacturing job turns you into a pre-programmed cog in a big machine that consumes substantial amounts of natural resources to produce something that will most likely end up in the junk heap in a couple of years. Where's the dignity in that?

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#84

Post by asperous »

jordanb wrote: post #81
steven777400 wrote: post #19

The memory is that these old factory/manufacturing jobs were high paying (middle class), secure, and accessible to people of low intellect, minimal education, and limited social grace. The proposed replacements "caregivers, retail workers and customer-service representatives" are significantly lower wage and also require more "EQ" that the working man of the prior generation didn't need. The voters these politicians…

You make some good points but I think you go a little off the rails with the social commentary. The truth is that wages a worker can earn are bounded at the top by how much value they add. If they are paid more than the value they create they'll be fired (unless they're executives). A manufacturing line can produce millions of dollars of value with a few dozen workers. This means if the workers organize properly and…

I think the upper bound on manufacturing jobs would be the cost of automation.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#85

Post by jcranmer »

golergka wrote: post #38
steven777400 wrote: post #19

The memory is that these old factory/manufacturing jobs were high paying (middle class), secure, and accessible to people of low intellect, minimal education, and limited social grace. The proposed replacements "caregivers, retail workers and customer-service representatives" are significantly lower wage and also require more "EQ" that the working man of the prior generation didn't need. The voters these politicians…

> actively resisted it Honest question. Is this a reality or a degrading stereotype?

It is probably more stereotype than not. But there is some truth to it: I do know an anecdote of someone who was effectively disowned for daring to go to college. That case is almost certainly on the extreme side of the spectrum, but I wouldn't be quick to discount the fact that some places are actively hostile to the idea of higher education.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#86

Post by euyyn »

joe_the_user wrote: post #66
wildmusings wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is easy for a coastal educated person to say, but to a line of family men who have not just eschewed education but actively resisted it, this is a tough pill to swallow. I don't think it's so much a cultural thing as the high intellectual capabilities required for high paying knowledge jobs. Coding, for example, is just too hard for a huge segment of the population, regardless of how much training they get. I…

" I don't think it's so much a cultural thing as the high intellectual capabilities required for high paying knowledge jobs. Coding, for example, is just too hard for a huge segment of the population, regardless of how much training they get. " Maybe but it doesn't matter that much. If some breakthrough in education made it easy for 60% of the population to become good quality coders, it would lower the wages of exis…

I work on developer tools, with the explicit long-term goal to automate developers out of their job, and we need all hands we can get :)

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#87

Post by dogma1138 »

asperous wrote: post #84
jordanb wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make some good points but I think you go a little off the rails with the social commentary. The truth is that wages a worker can earn are bounded at the top by how much value they add. If they are paid more than the value they create they'll be fired (unless they're executives). A manufacturing line can produce millions of dollars of value with a few dozen workers. This means if the workers organize properly and…

I think the upper bound on manufacturing jobs would be the cost of automation.

Automation isn't the enemy of manufacturing these days as much as decentralized manufacturing is.

Once 3D printing evolves to the point of being suitable to print everyday items it would kill a lot of jobs all across the supply chain the manufacturing industry.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#88

Post by city41 »

madengr wrote: post #40

Why can't I buy a toaster made in the USA, even if it is off a highly automated line? Because it's still cheaper to make in manually in China. Even if it's automated, it will still be cheaper to automate it in China.

Depends on the product. Some products could be automatically created in the US, then sold with "Made in the USA" on them, boosting their appeal.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#89

Post by pipio21 »

madengr wrote: post #40

Why can't I buy a toaster made in the USA, even if it is off a highly automated line? Because it's still cheaper to make in manually in China. Even if it's automated, it will still be cheaper to automate it in China.

Interesting that when I was living in China, I could not buy there things manufactured in China!!

I had to go to US or Europe in order to buy them and them move again to China with it because most factories directly export what they manufacture.

Automating something in the US or Europe is probably cheaper than in China because of the educated people there is much better prepared than in China.

The huge difference is in basic commodities cost. China is so huge and dense(great basic markets) but with great fluvial communications(cheap transport), cheap energy from coal, and growing immensely.

Most of the US is sparsely populated by comparison. The industry hubs are not as enormous as in China.

Re: Why Are Politicians So Obsessed with Manufacturing?

#90

Post by sharkjacobs »

golergka wrote: post #38
steven777400 wrote: post #19

The memory is that these old factory/manufacturing jobs were high paying (middle class), secure, and accessible to people of low intellect, minimal education, and limited social grace. The proposed replacements "caregivers, retail workers and customer-service representatives" are significantly lower wage and also require more "EQ" that the working man of the prior generation didn't need. The voters these politicians…

> actively resisted it Honest question. Is this a reality or a degrading stereotype?

It's certainly a generalization, and I think its fair (if recursive) to caution that every generalization is an overgeneralization.

But as far as the "reality" goes, there are certainly personal anecdotes to support it, some about people I personally know.

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