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A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

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Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#91
post #87
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If these are attitudes typical of psychology, then I cannot say I consider psychology to be a proper social science. It's quite unscientific to draw a blanket conclusion like that about a field based on the anecdotal evidence of one named person and some unnamed "critics". Let's get some statistics before casting doubt on the entire field of psychology. I think most people are trying to get by and to be good. My pe…

Sure "but not ALL psychologists!" is valid here (as it is in literally any discussion about anything online or elsewhere) but she is not just one person. She is the former head of a professional organization for psychologists; if we look for someone to represent them as a whole, she is the first place we should look. Would the professional organization for physics have as their head someone who believes we had it rig…

> She is the former head of a professional organization for psychologists; if we look for someone to represent them as a whole, she is the first place we should look.

Well, no; even we accept the arguments that (1) professional organizations of psychologists are a good proxy for generalizations about psychologists, and (2) the head of an organization is a good proxy for the organization, and (3) that each of those relations are strong enough that treating the relationship as transitive such that the head of a professional organization of psychologists is a good proxy for psychologists in general, she still wouldn't be the first place we would look to represent psychologists as a whole.

Because she's a former head of such an organization, not the current head. Just as we wouldn't look to Jimmy Carter as our first choice to represent what Americans as a whole believe (or John McAfee as our first choice to understand what the business organization now known as "Intel Security Group" believes), we wouldn't look to the former head of an organization as the first choice for generalization about what the group the organization is supposed to represent believes.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#92
post #15

I find it very disconcerting that people are trying to fend off criticism of previously published studies by calling it "bullying" or sometimes worse. What do feelings have to do with science?

When I read that sentence, I immediately thought it sounded like some people were being childish and defensive. OTOH, a bunch of people got unsolicited error reports for already published papers, and I can understand being initially irritated. This was, by the admission of the statcheck authors, a way to get attention quickly. My guess is it'll all settle down and people won't complain about bullying once everyone ju…

In Mathematics, if you get an unsolicited error report and the report is accurate, your first reaction is "oh my god" as you assess the damage and how much revision needs to be done to correct the paper. Then the answer is "thank you! I didn't realize so many people even read my work so closely! I'll add a correction and thank you for your contribution in an update of the paper".

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#93
post #87
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If these are attitudes typical of psychology, then I cannot say I consider psychology to be a proper social science. It's quite unscientific to draw a blanket conclusion like that about a field based on the anecdotal evidence of one named person and some unnamed "critics". Let's get some statistics before casting doubt on the entire field of psychology. I think most people are trying to get by and to be good. My pe…

Sure "but not ALL psychologists!" is valid here (as it is in literally any discussion about anything online or elsewhere) but she is not just one person. She is the former head of a professional organization for psychologists; if we look for someone to represent them as a whole, she is the first place we should look. Would the professional organization for physics have as their head someone who believes we had it rig…

I pretty much agree with you, but since the comment I replied to wasn't addressing Susan Fiske directly at all, and was generalizing wildly and negatively, I personally think this is a little misdirected.

I don't know Susan Fiske, and while she might deserve it, I won't be joining the crowd of pitchforks to judge and attack her based on a few forum comments. But, if you really want to excoriate someone who represents a lot of people poorly, it might be energy better spent and more timely to worry about Mike Pence who, I've heard directly from a handful of academics in Indiana, is doing very bad things for science and science funding.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#94
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You left out this part: > The gist of her article was that she feared too much of the criticism of past work had been ceded to social media, and that the criticism there is taking on an uncivil tone. So it seems to me, her complaint was not that research shouldn't be criticized. It was more-so that research should be criticized well , and that social media is a poor place for it, because it favors personal attacks ov…

Personal attacks in academia aren't really unheard of.

neither are bullshit papers/editorials/letters-to-the-editor

http://frog.gatech.edu/Pubs/How-to-Publish-a-Scientific-Comm...

"Eminent" specialists often argue in favor of eminence (journals, tenured investigators, blah blah) over evidence (tossing an analysis up on arXiv and posting a link to it). Young turks or iconoclasts often do the reverse, since there is a power structure in place via editors, reviewers, study sections, and the like. Orthodoxy often sticks even when the evidence supporting it is quite skimpy (or absent).

Funny thing is, when you pull the underlying data (in fields where this is possible), you routinely find that the reported conclusions are overblown. Not necessarily wrong, but routinely sold as more conclusive than they are (and sometimes they are in fact wrong, whether due to small sample sizes, "outlier removal", or outright fraud).

In no way, shape, or form are these bad habits limited to psychology. They happen in basic biology, they happen in medicine, they happen in clinical trial reporting. It's faster and easier to oversell shitty science than it is to do good, thorough science, so with the tight competition for grant funding, you can imagine what happens next.

Trust whoever you like, but verify results from everyone. There are good people out there who are fastidious; there are good people out there who are sloppy; and there are people who don't care one bit whether they're publishing absolute horse shit. The onus is on you, the reader or researcher, to do the requisite critical thinking (and, perhaps, a few analyses before you waste time running down a dead end).

Keep an open mind, but don't let your brain fall out. Also, many good scientists aren't very nice people, and some very pleasant people in science are shitty scientists. It's very hard to tell a priori which is which, so look at the evidence and decide for yourself.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The equating of objective facts with "male-dominant views" is just bizarre. I mean, seriously, they are saying that in the feminist view is that there is no objective reality? I suppose they are saying that feminists... don't live in... reality. You can't make this stuff up. At least they're up front about it, I suppose.

A fact is a human construct. It is a symbol. You just conflated facts with reality. A cursory examination of reality will reveal that observations of reality are observer dependent. So what is an objective fact? An objective fact must be one that is covariant in change of observer interpreting the fact. Physical laws like General Relativity are covariant in this way: the facts of relativity differ symbolically depend…

And yet, would the feminist science claim that intersubjectivity is the correct view to take? Can it? Or must it be that intersubjectivity is only the view of certain feminists and itself depends on the observer -- to some observer, independent observable facts exists, and to some others, they do not as they are intersubjective?

I think your position is interesting if odd and completely alienated from the way science is done or thought about in all of human history. I think the downvotes are coming from referring to standard "incorrect" science in your view (as it does not embrace intersubjectivity) as "masculine" and the "correct" view as "feminine" -- to put gender labels on abstract philosophical positions seems contrived and silly to some (me, at least). What does masculinity have to do with belief in objective facts? Why do only women understand that facts depend on the observer? Is it just because the person who introduced reference frames and general relativity to modern science, Albert Einstein, was female? What does adding these incendiary labels to the positions you outline and contrast add to the discussion, other than encouraging your mostly male and mostly skeptical-of-gender-politics audience to not listen?

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fact is a human construct. It is a symbol. You just conflated facts with reality. A cursory examination of reality will reveal that observations of reality are observer dependent. So what is an objective fact? An objective fact must be one that is covariant in change of observer interpreting the fact. Physical laws like General Relativity are covariant in this way: the facts of relativity differ symbolically depend…

Ok. So this is semantics and in this science there is a different meaning for the word "fact." What is the utility of redefining a fact as a human construct of accepted information, rather than as data points corresponding to components of objective reality?

Because you're putting the cart before the horse. Science is building a picture of """objective reality""" from human subjectivity. Data points aren't reality, they have to be interpreted. No matter how you try to do it, at some point you have to accept that a human being is doing science and the way science is done is fundamentally an intersubjective phenomenon. Science isn't reality. Scientific knowledge isn't reality. Science is a human activity and scientific knowledge is a relationship between humans and reality. I'm not redefining what a fact is, I'm unpacking the definition of a scientific fact and scrutinizing its dynamics.

Why is this useful? Because if you don't look at science from this point of view, you can't understand or even recognize good or bad science. The scientific method can only fail in its execution. Its execution is fundamentally an intersubjective phenomenon.

There is a deeper philosophical advantage to this point of view: This is the correct formulation of science if you want to do science about science. That is, if you want to study scientifically the method by which discoveries are made, become verified, and evolve into commonly held "objective facts", you have to formulate science in this way. If you want to study scientifically how people become scientists, you have to formulate science this way. If you want to study why scientific illiteracy is still a major sociological problem, you have to formulate science this way. Et cetera.

In light of all this, I have to ask: What is the utility of the idea of objective facts, objective reality, a science that is not intersubjective, one that is merely acquired and applied in the masculine mode? My answer to that question is engineering: Engineering is not interested in doing science, but applying it. In which case, objective reality is merely a shortcut to using scientific knowledge. I think that's an admissible use, but it is inadequate for science itself and understanding the relationship between science and society.

P.S. When I say masculine and feminine, I certainly do not mean qualities intrinsic to men or women. I am referring to archetypal abstract masculinity and femininity which are themselves diffuse aspects of human intersubjectivity the study of which reveals long-scale correlations in human politics and social structure.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#97
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I trust your story, and I believe it's somewhat taboo on HN to ask for this, I feel that it would be much more valuable if evidence was provided. That is an absolutely egregious act for a professor to commit and I feel like it should be reported to someone if substantiated..

Oh, I made a huge stink about it (and this was just one example of many comments of that type). This was at Penn in 2007.

Not to question you, but I can't find any evidence that Fiske was ever teaching at Penn. Her CV [1] is quite exhaustive, but only lists giving colloquia at Penn.

[1] http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/1605966/27061956/14652...

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. So this is semantics and in this science there is a different meaning for the word "fact." What is the utility of redefining a fact as a human construct of accepted information, rather than as data points corresponding to components of objective reality?

Because you're putting the cart before the horse. Science is building a picture of """objective reality""" from human subjectivity. Data points aren't reality, they have to be interpreted. No matter how you try to do it, at some point you have to accept that a human being is doing science and the way science is done is fundamentally an intersubjective phenomenon. Science isn't reality. Scientific knowledge isn't real…

> Data points aren't reality, they have to be interpreted

Data points perhaps need to be interpreted for utility, but they represent facts (but those are facts of sense experience, which is ultimately subjective, though often expressed in terms of a fairly restrained conclusion of that subjective experience.)

Which is not to say I disagree with your broader point.

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#99
post #43
post #34

> and whether online critiques of past work constitute “bullying” or shaming. The PubPeer comments are just a tiny part of that debate. But it can hit a nerve. > Susan Fiske, a former president of the Association for Psychological Science, alluded to Statcheck in an interview with Business Insider, calling it a “gotcha algorithm.” > The draft of the article said these online critics were engaging in “methodological t…

I took a class with Susan Fiske in grad school, and the following is a quote from one of her comments on a homework where I had called into question a paper that was clearly not just statistically incorrectly done but was based on urban-legend-level assumptions: "These results are from respected investigators, so it's inappropriate to question them."

Is that verbatim?

Re: A bot crawled thousands of studies looking for simple math errors

#100
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure "but not ALL psychologists!" is valid here (as it is in literally any discussion about anything online or elsewhere) but she is not just one person. She is the former head of a professional organization for psychologists; if we look for someone to represent them as a whole, she is the first place we should look. Would the professional organization for physics have as their head someone who believes we had it rig…

> She is the former head of a professional organization for psychologists; if we look for someone to represent them as a whole, she is the first place we should look. Well, no; even we accept the arguments that (1) professional organizations of psychologists are a good proxy for generalizations about psychologists, and (2) the head of an organization is a good proxy for the organization, and (3) that each of those re…

Generalizations are necessary for communication, cognition, general human understanding. If you try to reject them you will be rendered incapable of discussion, communication, thought about nearly any relevant or interesting issue.

Positions (1) (2) (3) are nearly axiomatically true -- if we are to generalize at all, and we must, we need to look for positions and people to generalize from. The very purpose of a professional organization is to aid us in doing this. Members of these organizations use it as a mental model to generalize "my professional community" and "the leaders of my professional community".

If you look at her resume, she is the former head of this and about 4 other high-prestige psychologists professional organizations, and a high ranking member of nearly every organization she is eligible to be a part of as a psychologist. She is the very definition as "well-respected representative of her field". She is a fine target for generalization. What you have not brought to the field are conflicting reports from other psychologists contradicting her or suggesting she is not an appropriate representative. Jimmy Carter and John McAfee are readily directly contradicted -- if you ask me to provide sources for numerous professionals in the field suggesting they are not the standard I can do so easily and so can you (though Jimmy Carter is a weird selection -- he is not a professional, and both are telling, since neither of them work in their field anymore)

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