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Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

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Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Snowden revelation are you talking about? I remember when everyone was up in arms about PRISM, but that's just a pretty interface on more focused requests of data for specific users. This is the first instance, to my knowledge, of the government requesting carte blanche realtime search of all incoming and outgoing email for all users.

No 2 and No 8 on this cover Yahoo directly: http://mashable.com/2014/06/05/edward-snowden-revelations/ That's them searching for what they want plus seeing everything without notification. There was also a $250,000 a day fine for non-compliance with court orders. That adds up. I can't find the link but they made it grow exponentially over time in another report.

#8 is a weird thing to bring up. Yahoo was going to be fined for not letting the NSA secretly tap their cables? They didn't even know the tapping was being done! How could they be non compliant?

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the point of the Nacchio story. There is nothing to suggest that Qwest's refusal to cave in to NSA demands was motivated by Nacchio's desire for personal enrichment instead of a principled stance. At worst, Qwest was motivated by the risk of fines of up to $130,000 per violation per day for breaching Section 222 of the Communications Act, according to Qwest legal [1]. We would do well to stop focusing on…

I don't understand your point. I was responding to this: Qwest CEO Joseph Nacchio who resisted NSA spying is out of prison Nacchio's imprisonment has nothing to do with NSA spying; it has to do with his efforts to bilk Qwest shareholders out of their money. Those efforts are well-documented.

The implication, as I'm sure you've heard, is that the stock drop was due in part to the canceled government contracts, and/or that Nacchio was investigated and prosecuted for somewhat common behavior because of Qwest's refusal to spy.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#323
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was tempted to reply with a "found the objectivist" just to illustrate what "ad hominem" really means, but I'm waiting for a build, so I have time to kill. Ad hominem would have been to attack Ayn Rand. I didn't do that. The quote I used doesn't attack the author, it attacks the work. I happen to agree with it. If you want to criticize it, you would do better to point out that the quote I used is not constructive c…

The problem is that language is much higher bandwidth than the information content of the words. Context and implicit shared knowledge play a huge part and should be taken into account when assessing someone's words. Both the quote, your original use of it, and your reply to my comment are ad hominem attacks where the attack is mostly in what is left unsaid but understood by the relatively smart, well read, culturall…

> The problem is that language is much higher bandwidth than the information content of the words.

On the contrary, the problem with a natural language is that is imprecise, vague and ambiguous. This is why it's so easy to allow assumptions to creep into one's interpretation of it. A substantial part of your interpretation of my comments is based on your own assumptions, a lot of which do not hold up. I'm not inclined to address all of them -- for the same reasons I will elaborate when I address your interpretation of my having "time to kill" -- but I will try to address a few I found interesting.

> It's pretty obvious what the ad hominem is if you use this quote straight after someone quotes Ayn Rand: it is targeted at the poster and implies he is, himself, immature, living in a dream world, meaning one should dismiss his arguments without consideration.

I don't know if the poster is an objectivist. The poster remembered a quote from "Atlas Shrugged" that resonated with them and posted it in a comment, which does not necessarily imply that the poster is a fan of "Atlas Shrugged" or Ayn Rand in general; I could probably find myself in a situation where I could consider a comment from Meyer's "Twilight" relevant, without changing my opinion that "Twilight" is an utter piece of crap. I used the quote I posted to express my opinion of "Atlas Shrugged". Which brings me to the next assumption I would like to address:

> It is extremely rare to attack a work using appeal to emotion without attacking the author.

To paraphrase, instead of quoting: You keep mentioning that fallacy; I do not think it means what you think it means. "Appeal to emotion" is a logical fallacy that consists of trying to support your argument with pathos instead of logos. Not every form of discourse is an argument. Mine certainly wasn't and I suspect John's wasn't either. As I mentioned before, I was stating an opinion -- to wit, that I find "Atlas Shrugged" sorely lacking in certain aspects and that I think that staunch objectivists have certain flaws -- not refuting a point made by the poster. As a matter of fact, I did state in another comment that I agree, to a degree, with the poster's point, but dislike the quote he used to make that point.

> This really means "you are not ordinarily worth engaging with, because [see above], but since I have nothing to do, I will". This is reinforcing the ad hominem by introducing superiority and dismissiveness. "Here, child, let me explain."

You're right about one thing here: my reply to you did, indeed, contain an intentional ad hominem. That doesn't mean that the assumption underlying your interpretation of "time to kill" is correct. Rather than implying that objectivists, as a whole group, are not worth engaging with, I was implying that I ordinarily would not find a comment like yours worth replying to. Is that dismissive? It certainly is. Does it imply a feeling of superiority? Not at all. Just because I don't think that, under normal circumstances, I can produce more worth by spending my time on other things rather than replying to that particular kind of argument, it doesn't mean I'm superior (or feel like it) to you. Rather, it means that I don't think I'm good enough at arguing to produce any net worth by engaging in the discussion of a comment like yours.

> This one is on par with telling a new black acquaintance about your black friends, or sending them news about black people doing great things. I should not need to explain it, but I will.

As a quick aside, I don't have any assumption to address here; I just wanted to point out that I have no idea what that whole "black news" analogy is supposed to mean; you might have tried to explain it, but I failed to understand it.

But you do delve a lot into the ad hominem in that part of my sentence, so I should probably address that. Yes, I assumed from your comment that you're an objectivist and that, as an objectivist, you share the flaws I ascribe to the whole group. No, that assumption is not based on any hard facts, but my experience with similar comments and, as such, might very well be incorrect. Yes, I do imply that being an objectivist would explain why you misintepreted my original comment as an ad hominem. Yes, I did intentionally include an ad hominem in a comment that points out that my previous comment was not an ad hominem.

In closing, many of the assumptions on which you based your interpretations are wrong. It's not that I believe that they're wrong -- most of them are factually wrong, because most are assumptions about what I meant to say or was trying to say. The reason I point this out at all is because you're trying to engage in a highly rational argument out of a highly emotional motivation and I suspect those emotions are creeping into your assumptions and invalidating your efforts. The reason I suspect that is because I used to do the same thing: get riled up about something I read and then try to deconstruct the offending text with what I believe were purely rational arguments. In hindsight, it never worked out, even when I believed I "won" the discussion.

Regardless of the context of HN "and its sophisticated audience and level of discussion", sometimes a cigar is just a cigar; sometimes a person might state the equivalent of "I think 'Atlas Shrugged' is crap and adults who wholeheartedly buy into it should know better" and it might not be a slippery slope to a dystopian future where all rational argument has been replaced by Trump/Clinton debates; sometimes a person's sense of humor is impolite to a certain audience and the best reply is more along the lines of "Dude, don't be a jerk" rather than "The test results say you are a horrible person; we weren't even testing for that." ;)

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#324
Friendly reminder: the FBI and NSA are part of the executive branch of government and report to the President of the United States. Make no mistake -- there absolutely is someone who could stop this. The fact that this clearly unconstitutional activity not only continued after being exposed, but actually appears to has expanded in its scope, leaves us with but one conclusion: the President supports this activity and wants it to continue.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#325

In China and Russia, it is well known that all oligarchs are corrupt. However, not all of them will go to prison -- only those who cross the politicians will ever be tried and convicted.

Well, it's the same in the US, where they're not called "oligarchs", but merely "entrepreneurs", "moguls", etc.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#326
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." -- John Rogers

Responding with an ad hominem - whether at the author of the quote or the poster of it by association - is both an ineffective response (the appeal to emotion signals an inability to argue rationally) and lowers the quality of discussion (by taking it away from the point, into emotional territory). Constant appeals to emotion and resorting to a wide array of fallacies allows for strongmen to build tribes which follow…

>Responding with an ad hominem - whether at the author of the quote or the poster of it by association - is both an ineffective response (the appeal to emotion signals an inability to argue rationally) and lowers the quality of discussion (by taking it away from the point, into emotional territory).

Thankfully, that was not an ad hominem. It was a quote against a particular BOOK.

>Constant appeals to emotion and resorting to a wide array of fallacies allows for strongmen to build tribes which follow them blindly

So, kind of like Ayn Rand, which had a known history of blind following entourage?

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#327
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well considering that the quote was the entirety of the post, I don't see how you can then claim that responding with a second quote discrediting the first is in some way responding to the person and not the argument. There was no argument being made and if they tried to do the work of the commenter for them and make an argument, you'd then say they were putting words into the person's mouth. IMO, if you are relying…

> considering that the quote was the entirety of the post, I don't see how you can then claim that responding with a second quote discrediting the first is in some way responding to the person and not the argument The first quote laid out a case using a narrative as a metaphor. It explicitly states its position, and as such is an appropriate use of a quote. The second quote is entirely composed of appeals to emotion…

>The first quote laid out a case using a narrative as a metaphor. It explicitly states its position, and as such is an appropriate use of a quote.

Tell us more about the appropriate uses of quotes.

Apparently when a quote doesn't explicitly state its position, but it makes it implicitly very clear, it's not appropriate?

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#328

Friendly reminder: the FBI and NSA are part of the executive branch of government and report to the President of the United States. Make no mistake -- there absolutely is someone who could stop this. The fact that this clearly unconstitutional activity not only continued after being exposed, but actually appears to has expanded in its scope, leaves us with but one conclusion: the President supports this activity and…

> (...) are part of the executive branch of government and report to the President of the United States.

It's very likely, from what we have observed over the past sixty to seventy years, that the Executive Branch does not operate this way in practice. The actual bureaucratic system has probably morphed to allow for deniability and other measures that offer structural protection against political or legal attacks.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#329
post #40
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there's a huge difference between a computer "seeing" your email and a human being searching for keywords within your email to decide whether or not to follow you around and/or arrest you. This report isn't complaining about unencrypted emails. It's about them giving an intelligence agency the equivalent of a `grep "terrorism" | tail -f` for all their users' email. Without a warrant. (Not that a warrant coul…

You're right, that US govt bulk-scanning is terrifying, especially without warrants. But what happens when Facebook scans your private chats and reports your illegal doings to the police? ( http://www.infowars.com/facebook-monitors-your-private-messa... ) What data restrictions do we have that would prevent $dataCompany from sharing data with other actors? I'm sure a "privacy policy" can do something, but in the end,…

Yes, it's a frightening precedent. What Facebook's doing is essentially just as bad. Common carriers of communications (Facebook chat, Yahoo mail, etc.) should not be scanning mail. I think I'd grant an exception for the child pornography searching that most providers already do, since it's just comparing image hashes against a specific blacklist of hash and can never reveal private information about non-applicable images or communications.

Re: Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence

#330
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shorn of their excess verbiage, your arguments boil down in their entirety to "here's the name of an informal fallacy, therefore you are wrong".

Then demonstrate how they are wrong, with examples.

Your whole post starts from an assumption on what the parent meant (that he assumed you support Ayn Rand and that he suggested Heinlein specifically to address that) and then proceeds with irrelevant references to various fallacies.

First, obviously one can suggest a book that they think "demolishes" Ayn Rand's (or any other author's) views, regardless of whether they think that the person they suggest it to supports Rand or not.

But let's get into the implication and see, if it was true, whether it could be justified.

So, you protest on the implication you think the parent makes that "by attacking the use of a quote to ridicule those who have read Ayn Rand and attempt to present her ideas, I am myself promoting Ayn Rand's ideas".

And you name various fallacies to show why this is not necessarily true.

Well, it might not be a logical conclusion in the formal logic sense, but it's a very probable conclusion given all we know about human behavior, how conversations go, etc -- not to mention your writing style.

In life, as opposed to pure math, we often need, and do, judgement calls based on incomplete data, calls that don't actually follow with 100% logical certainty, but are nevertheless quite clear from the general context. Sure, we might be wrong in some cases. That's still a net positive, if we are correct in most cases. 100% correctness is for the inhabitants of Vulcan.

I don't know what the parent consider you -- he might consider you a fellow anti-Rand person for all I know, and suggested the book because you'd appreciate it being such.

But to my eyes you totally look like a pro-Rand person -- not just because you jumped to criticize the quote (yes, it appealed to emotion -- but people tend to ignore that when it concerns emotions and quotes they are in favor of), but also because of the overall tone of the responses and the fallacitis ("oh, I discovered this blunt tool on the internet, let's hammer every conversation into a inquiry for objective truth").

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