A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it • Hacker News Board

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#61

Post by nothrabannosir » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 10:26 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #57

nothrabannosir wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not get a "+1" for anyone of your choosing at any point in time if you donated to a stranger in the past?

How could they guarantee that? What if you need to call that right in and they can't find anyone compatible?

There's kidneys, just not for you if you're at the bottom of the list.

Compare to kidney exchange (http://transplants.ucla.edu/site.cfm?id=112): if your friend or spouse needs one, but you're incompatible, you can find another pair who has the inverse compatibility problem and swap with them. Or more, and form a chain (e.g. this 35-kidney chain: http://abc27.com/2015/03/30/paired-exchange-record-70-people...).

What I was referring to is Good Samaritan donation:

Many Good Samaritan donors choose to start chains because it is a way to help more than one person suffering from kidney failure. One chain typically facilitates anywhere from 2 to 30 transplants. The NKR pays for donation insurance for all Good Samaritan donor who start chains through NKR.

http://www.kidneyregistry.org/living_donors.php?cookie=1

EDIT: Ah, found it---they're called Kidney Vouchers :) http://transplants.ucla.edu/site.cfm?id=406 great name. Although limited to one predetermined person, so not exactly a blanket "+1".

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#62

Post by colechristensen » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 10:28 PM UTC

pdq wrote: post #47

This is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way as unethical, but the best way to incentivize organ donation is if the donors get paid a market price for the organ. The donor is giving up a valuable piece of their body, taking time and large medical risks in surgery, and likely reduced life expectancy. If you walk through the current process, everyone in the donation gets paid -- doctors, nurses, hospital, pharma…

You're missing a very big point

5. The quality of organs goes down.

It's been extensively studied for paying for blood donations, and the consensus is widely to discourage the practice.

https://www.statnews.com/2016/01/22/paid-plasma-not-blood/

http://www.radiolab.org/story/308403-blood/

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#63

Post by laxatives » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 10:34 PM UTC

ReallyAnonymous wrote: post #55

As a surgeon who is 48, I will say that on my transplant rotation ( I am not a transplant surgeon ) the theory of the safety of donation was in the Vietnam War era data that said that soldiers who lost a kidney from injury were at no increased risk of renal failure as the general public given similar risk factors. I know that if you have hypertension or diabetes, it is near impossible to donate a kidney as they have…

That isn't really a fair comparison. There's a selection bias among kidney donors (they must pass some minimal health requirements) and are at a lower risk than the general population.

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#64

Post by sqeaky » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 10:37 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #45

djtriptych wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, healthy people are born with empathy. Which is why childhood animal mutilation is a standard test for sociopathy.

No, healthy people learn empathy, they aren't born being empathetic. They should learn it very early, and certainly should demonstrate some empathy by the time pre-K rolls around.

This back and forth sounds a great deal like "NO U" being shouted on 4chan.

Are there any sources, papers or studies indicating whether it is learned, innate or both?

Sources and empiricism are what we should be resorting to, not down-votes.

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#65

Post by ekianjo » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 10:37 PM UTC

timecube wrote: post #48

pdq wrote: post #47

This is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way as unethical, but the best way to incentivize organ donation is if the donors get paid a market price for the organ. The donor is giving up a valuable piece of their body, taking time and large medical risks in surgery, and likely reduced life expectancy. If you walk through the current process, everyone in the donation gets paid -- doctors, nurses, hospital, pharma…

A big issue with allowing organ markets is that impoverished people can practically be forced to sell their organs.

That's what's happening right now on the black market. With a real market you can ensure that this kind of things does not happen. (or at least control it)

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#66

Post by randyrand » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 10:46 PM UTC

timecube wrote: post #48

pdq wrote: post #47

This is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way as unethical, but the best way to incentivize organ donation is if the donors get paid a market price for the organ. The donor is giving up a valuable piece of their body, taking time and large medical risks in surgery, and likely reduced life expectancy. If you walk through the current process, everyone in the donation gets paid -- doctors, nurses, hospital, pharma…

A big issue with allowing organ markets is that impoverished people can practically be forced to sell their organs.

a rather easy solution to that would be to bar the poor from being paid. Sounds unfeasible, but for example -- we were also able to bar the poor from investing with the "accredited investors" title.

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#67

Post by bcherny » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 10:58 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #51

timecube wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big issue with allowing organ markets is that impoverished people can practically be forced to sell their organs.

Yes, often welfare systems won't give you aid if you have assets such as cash or a home. Would your organs be considered assets?

I'm not sure if it was ever verified, but reminds me of this story from 2005 - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/148...

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#68

Post by vacri » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 11:01 PM UTC

pdq wrote: post #47

This is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way as unethical, but the best way to incentivize organ donation is if the donors get paid a market price for the organ. The donor is giving up a valuable piece of their body, taking time and large medical risks in surgery, and likely reduced life expectancy. If you walk through the current process, everyone in the donation gets paid -- doctors, nurses, hospital, pharma…

Why not cut out the pretense and just farm poor people?

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#69

Post by sqeaky » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 11:05 PM UTC

sqeaky wrote: post #64

sidlls wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, healthy people learn empathy, they aren't born being empathetic. They should learn it very early, and certainly should demonstrate some empathy by the time pre-K rolls around.

This back and forth sounds a great deal like "NO U" being shouted on 4chan. Are there any sources, papers or studies indicating whether it is learned, innate or both? Sources and empiricism are what we should be resorting to, not down-votes.

A down-vote instead of a link, I don't know what I expected.

Re: A kidney donor at 18 now regrets it

#70

Post by vacri » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 11:06 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #56

criley2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At the same time, it seemed easier to be selfless as a teenager, probably for similar reasons for why it's easier to draft 18-year-olds than it is 28-year-olds. Given young persons willingness to sacrifice for the greater cause without realizing that life extends well past your 30s and 40s I totally agree, the biological basis of this is Pre-frontal Cortex development. "The [prefrontal cortex] isn't fully developed…

> I can't understand any other context for drafting 18 year olds other than taking advantage of their youth and incomplete development Physical fitness surely? Isn't 18 or 19 around the physical fitness peak? I'm guessing that people are on average are significantly stronger and more robust at 18 than they are at 28. I think the British Army has 26 as the limit for joining in the first place for officers at least. Al…

18-year-olds are also inexperienced in the travails of supporting yourself in life, and as a result of this, are much easier to sway with ideals rather than pragmatics.