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How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

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Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#51

Post by alexmuro »

If you are doing a simple project, there is nothing wrong with just using jquery (or imho d3). If you know that your project is always going to be pretty simple or especially if you are learning.

I have been teaching a number of people javascript at my lab lately and I think its unwise to teach new javascripters using any of the modern tools or transpiling until someone runs into one the problems that those tools solve. Having been a javascript coder consistently from the jquery days until now, I am not pining for the simple old days of yore.

It can be hard to learn everything that goes into a big front end app these days but when used correctly all those tools are there for a reason.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#52

Post by zzalpha »

jordache wrote: post #39
zzalpha wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your use of the word "easier" is questionable. Even for trivial SPAs it's often easier to roll the basic functionality yourself. Flipping over to something like Angular introduces technical and cognitive overhead that often isn't worth the trouble for something simple.

What about maintainability? You want everyone who touches your code to figure out your custom solution for data binding? Or you could just follow the conventions established by an industry popular framework that is instantly consumable by another developer?

Seriously?

If your application become sufficiently complex that it can't be easily grokked by a decent dev, that's when you know it's time to switch.

Until then it's just over engineering (which the JS community admittedly loves).

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#53

Post by jordache »

zzalpha wrote: post #52
jordache wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about maintainability? You want everyone who touches your code to figure out your custom solution for data binding? Or you could just follow the conventions established by an industry popular framework that is instantly consumable by another developer?

Seriously? If your application become sufficiently complex that it can't be easily grokked by a decent dev, that's when you know it's time to switch. Until then it's just over engineering (which the JS community admittedly loves).

what is that complexity threshold? Self determined no doubt.

Guy A believes his custom design is simple enough to comprehend by anyone. Guy B doesn't agree.

It doesn't really matter at the end of the day. If you work in a team environment, the toolset will be pre-determined already. You don't have a choice.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#54

Post by jordache »

FrancoDiaz wrote: post #24
tibbon wrote: post #11

This is pretty much why I don't do front-end. I'm fully capable of it, but I just don't like keeping up with this flavor-of-the-week. It just doesn't feel like programming to me, or at least not the programming I enjoy. Strangely, I see so many new developers rushing toward the front-end, which seems much more complicated in many ways than just building solid web API services, analyzing data, etc.

The "flavor of the week" is mostly a meme. You would be fine just learning ES6, a front-end technology like Angular or React, and a bundler like Webpack. Learning Webpack is painful, but there are other choices. The front-end is harder IMHO, but as another poster mentioned, the opportunities are tremendous.

I feel the perceived "hardness/complexity" of the front-end stack is largely due to the relative less mature nature of JS / CSS / and the ever evolving toolset.

From a pure computer science perspective, I feel the data structure, algorithms leveraged on the backend side has greater complexity potential.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#55

Post by blacksmythe »

FrancoDiaz wrote: post #24
tibbon wrote: post #11

This is pretty much why I don't do front-end. I'm fully capable of it, but I just don't like keeping up with this flavor-of-the-week. It just doesn't feel like programming to me, or at least not the programming I enjoy. Strangely, I see so many new developers rushing toward the front-end, which seems much more complicated in many ways than just building solid web API services, analyzing data, etc.

The "flavor of the week" is mostly a meme. You would be fine just learning ES6, a front-end technology like Angular or React, and a bundler like Webpack. Learning Webpack is painful, but there are other choices. The front-end is harder IMHO, but as another poster mentioned, the opportunities are tremendous.

>> fine just learning ES6, a front-end technology like Angular (2) or React

And in 2015 you would have been just fine learning Ember or Angular 2.

And in 2014 you would have been just fine learning Angular 1 or Ember.

And in 2013 you would have been just fine learning Backbone and Ember.

And in 2012 you would have been just fine learning Knockout and Backbone...

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#56

Post by ilostmykeys »

If you stay on the surface and follow trends you will think front end web development is insanity inducing. But if you go deeper, develop your own thinking and deep patterns you will realize that the web platform is doing just fine and is progressing better than most languages/platforms out there.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#57

Post by _Marak_ »

I've found using Babel / React / transpile tool-chain is actually fairly impossible to use for the majority of developers. I've given up on it several times in favor of plain-ole-javascript and jQuery.

The amount of time it takes to ramp-up on the technical knowledge isn't insurmountable. The main issue is bloat in both code size and dependency chain instability. On a slow connection, you might find yourself battling against your tool chain for half the day. In the case you actually hit a code problem with the underlying technologies, it's going to be hours if not days searching Github for the patched version of the module. If you actually are able to path the specific dependency, it will probably break something else.

I do have hope though. We are starting to see a lot of really cool Babel / React components and projects. I think with a bit more time, we'll get stability in the eco-system as there are less deltas to the underlaying code dependencies and the browser vendors catch up with ES7 features.

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#58

Post by theseanz »

natmaster wrote: post #32
dhruvkar wrote: post #21

I couldn't get through the entire thing. Even knowing that it's a fun/sarcastic piece of writing, the portrayed pain is all too real, as someone just starting to dive into the front-end. In all honesty, can I still use jQuery for new projects without issues in 2016? Is there a real reason not to?

React is really very simple. It only takes a short amount of time to learn it, and then when you do you won't get headaches all the time trying to keep track of state. You don't need to know all the toolchains and crap if you just use create-react-app.

I did not have a simple experience with React. I did front end development for years, ending with jQuery-driven AJAX sites pulling from REST APIs (2013), and when I tried to learn React this year it was all voodoo.

Is there a good tutorial out there for lapsed front-end devs?

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#59

Post by novaleaf »

tibbon wrote: post #11

This is pretty much why I don't do front-end. I'm fully capable of it, but I just don't like keeping up with this flavor-of-the-week. It just doesn't feel like programming to me, or at least not the programming I enjoy. Strangely, I see so many new developers rushing toward the front-end, which seems much more complicated in many ways than just building solid web API services, analyzing data, etc.

> I would transpile it from Typescript using a Webpack + SystemJS + Babel combo.

Don't find it surprising that the author intentionally makes his/her story more complex than necessary.

For example, you can use "Typescript+WebPack" instead and ditch all the blah-blah on Babel/SystemJs, but that wouldn't help the naritive much, now would it!

Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016

#60

Post by skipants »

brlewis wrote: post #28
imgabe wrote: post #15

I guess I'm behind the times in that I still use jQuery. Is it really worthwhile to go through everything described in this article to create a simple filterable table?

Yes, it's definitely worthwhile moving past jQuery, but no you don't have to do everything described in this article. There's a lightweight framework called Mithril that when used with MSX will give you the feel of React, i.e. the state of your app flows in a straightforward way from the state of your objects, rather than from a series of imperative jQuery operations. Just start with this example and customize to wha…

This comment is kind of ironic, isn't it? OP asked whether he has to use a framework (albeit a seemingly-complicated one) and you suggest another framework for him to use. Not saying you're wrong, or anything. I just found it kind of funny.
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