Never accept a counter-offer • Hacker News Board

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#161

Post by fecak » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 1:51 AM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #132

xenadu02 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh it's like selling houses in San Francisco. You only do a few a year so the high commissions need to sustain you. Plus the market goes up and down and you need to save enough from commission to cover market downturns. All that said really good recruiters are well paid.

... most recruiters who are just decent can place 3-5 candidates a month.

3-5 a month is pretty optimistic. I wouldn't want people to think this and leave their jobs. If you do two a month you're probably doing quite well, especially if you're independent, but it's not easy as an independent to do volume.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#162

Post by loeg » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 1:52 AM UTC

byoung2 wrote: post #36

fecak wrote: post #18

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accep…

My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in 2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making $117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I wanted cash. They played the old "not…

I, too, have had good results accepting a counteroffer. The problem was pay; I got two offers and asked for more pay; they fixed it (40% salary raise and much better bonuses). This was probably 4 years ago; I'm coming up on 6 years with this employer. Not everyone who accepts counters leaves immediately.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#163

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 1:53 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #64

slg wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hear this, but where do you people work that this is the case? As some who has been on the other side of the table this was never how it worked. Losing a team member sucks. A counter offer is an attempt to avoid that. The idea that your boss would secretly interview your replacement before firing you just seems silly to me. At the most practical level doing something so cold hearted would send every other me…

> Losing a team member sucks. But being paid below market rate also sucks. By making a counter-offer and having it accepted, you're now setting a precedent. All of that person's peers will now see that the way to get a raise at this company is to constantly be interviewing and threatening to leave. Is that the environment you're trying to foster?

[deleted]

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#164

Post by slg » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 1:54 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #152

slg wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the disconnect is that most people imagine their boss is allied with their company against them. In reality they are a mediator between the two (or maybe I'm in the minority with that line of thinking, but it is the best way I can both do the job and sleep at night). I want everyone on my team to be paid fair market value. I fight for it come budget time. If someone who I think is underpaid comes to me with a…

> Trying to get a raise with another offer is a bluff. You have to live with that fact that you might be called on that bluff. I think you meant to say "without another offer". When you indeed have an offer, it's not a bluff. Whether you get a counter or not, the outcome for you is you win. Now, if you DON'T have another offer, but try to get a raise by claiming to have another offer--well, that's an advanced tactic…

I meant it as I wrote it because it was in response to your original comment below:

>the way to get a raise at this company is to constantly be interviewing and threatening to leave

If your goal is to get a raise and keep your job, coming in with another offer is a bluff. The way to get a raise at my company isn't to constantly be interviewing because we won't counter offer everyone and we generally won't offer repeated counters.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#165

Post by csvarona » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 1:54 AM UTC

It really depends on the reason you're leaving. For example: if you were leaving because of mismanagement, then a counter-offer without any promise for change in management will not be enough.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#166

Post by fecak » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 1:57 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #105

jonaf wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make $30,000 USD for placing a person??? I'm in the wrong line of work.

Never worked in the field but have heard that three months salary is a typical commission. If the recruiter is working for a firm I guess some of that goes to the firm but not sure how much.

25% is towards the high end mostly. If the recruiter works for a firm the agency likely keeps most of the fee. I worked for two agencies before going independent and IIRC kept 15-50% of fees, usually on a progressive scale. So you may start at 15 and get to 50 retroactive if you hit $n in fees in a year. I remember n was ~500K at my first job in the late 90s. So there, hitting 500K meant 250K in commissions.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#167

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 2:04 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #102

not_kurt_godel wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure many people would be interested to learn more details about your current gig. How much are you making now? How did you get clients initially? What sorts of development do you do now?

>How did you get clients initially? He said it, contacts and social skills. One other way is referrals but you generally need to have a few clients before that starts happening.

> "contacts and social skills"

I'm curious too, because that's what everyone says, but they stop there. It's always:

1. Have contacts and social skills 2. ??? 3. Make 6X as a freelancer!

Let's say I'm starting with contacts and social skills. And a mortgage and a full-time job that lets me pay it. Any good books or blog posts that describe what's in step 2?

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#168

Post by byoung2 » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 2:12 AM UTC

econner wrote: post #41

byoung2 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in 2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making $117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I wanted cash. They played the old "not…

Why did you quit to freelance?

Why did you quit to freelance? I have a daughter (turning 4 this month) and I wanted to work from home and have a more flexible schedule. I applied for a few companies that offered remote work, but the schedules weren't that flexible (they all seemed to have core hours, except WordPress, which was a top contender). I also love to travel...my wife and I average 6 weeks of vacation and a dozen or more countries per year, and that has been a problem at every company for me so far. She is a registered nurse, so she can easily get a month off at a time.

I work for a company (Surge) that guarantees 40 hours a week, though I regularly exceed that, either through clients who don't mind overtime, or when clients overlap. The team is distributed, and the schedules are completely flexible (I spent a month at our condo in the Philippines in February, and was able to put in work despite the time difference).

If I had a time machine, I would go back and do this sooner.

EDIT: If you want me to pass along your resume to Surge, email me (contact info in profile)

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#169

Post by zxcvvcxz » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 2:12 AM UTC

I will have to disagree with this on the following grounds:

1) As others have pointed out, look who's doing the suggesting. Recruiters profit from your movement between jobs, hence they will always encourage/justify it. This prioritizes their interests, not necessarily yours.

2) You were thinking of leaving, then the employer gave you a reason to stay. Sometimes life isn't worth overthinking: you got what you wanted through negotiation (your willingness to leave), so enjoy it!

Now that's not to say things always go well with this scenario. A counter-offer is not something I would want to normally do as an employer. It sets a bad precident: if I value you as an employee and my cost of replacing you is very high, you can just threaten to leave an get an automatic salary bump.

Furthermore, when word gets around (and it probably will...) my other employees might not be so happy that someone got an ad-hoc performance review. Now everyone wants their contract re-evaluated.

It's tough, and not black-and-white.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#170

Post by PhasmaFelis » Mon, Oct 03, 2016, 2:13 AM UTC

My father once received a pre-emptive counteroffer.

Basically, he did his job well and took on steadily increasing responsibilities as the company expanded rapidly, and in five years he went from a minor role in a small business to a critical role in a large business. One day his bosses suddenly realized that their senior system administrator was working for peanuts and any of their competitors would love to have him.

They gave him a 50% raise on the spot. He hadn't even been thinking about other work.