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When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

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Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#171

Post by sctb »

zajd wrote: post #37

Yeah I really wish we could go back to the time where children of aristocrats were the only ones who could afford to travel, influenza was murdering percentages of the human popluation and most black people were second class citizens. -a sensible, law abiding (white upper-middle class) Englishman Really a shame we've given it all up. edit. Wow I am loving this thread, these immigration threads bring out the best part…

You've violated the guidelines in several ways with this comment and the ones downthread. Please don't derail threads with unproductive sarcasm, complain about downvotes, make generalizations about the community, and throw insults. This is not the kind of civil behavior that Hacker News asks for, and it seriously thwarts our attempts to gratify our intellectual curiosity, so we ban accounts that do this.

We've detached this flagged comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12622421.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#172

Post by erikpukinskis »

ori_b wrote: post #135
zajd wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a white person laments about how much "we've given up" since 1910 it is a racist action. Sorry the truth hurts. It's similar to those that look back on the 50s as a golden age in America. Sure, it's golden if you're a white male. We haven't given up shit since 1910, progress has been unimaginable and it's actually EASIER to travel internationally now than it was then. So yeah, if you're going to pretend like 191…

Yep. Racism has become a meaningless accusation, tossed around so lightly that I can conclude nothing when I hear it. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave me a good term for the people like the ones that murdered most of my grandmother's family because of their race.

> I see that the word "racism" has ceased to have meaning.

This is called "gaslighting". You have encountered a use of the term "racist" that you think is poor usage. Instead of confining your criticism to the specific usage of the term, you declare any and all uses of the term "meaningless".

It's intellectually lazy. Perhaps your definition of racist is "openly and aggressively advocating against one of three or four theorized racial groups". Perhaps you don't like my definition, "any and all behaviors which reinforce the systematic oppression of people based on race or other markers connected to race".

But rather than stand up for what you believe is a sensible use of the word, you wipe your hands the entire discussion. It's a childish tactic.

Personally, I think "racism" is a vital word, and it's vital that it retain a broad definition applicable to behaviors currently committed by well intentioned people (as it was 100 years ago). I believe the notion that "racism" traditionally refers to socially deplorable behavior is a false understanding of history and etymology. You seem to disagree, I would encourage you to argue your perspective.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#173

Post by thisrod »

wtbob wrote: post #26

I'm reminded of this famous piece by A.J.P. Taylor: 'Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman. He could live where he liked and as he liked. He had no official number or identity card. He could travel abroad or leave his country for ever without a passport or any sort of official permission. He c…

Let's not get too nostalgic. The operative words there are "English man":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Restriction_Act_...

Or at least someone with a good enough accent to pass for one.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#174

Post by zajd »

sctb wrote: post #171
zajd wrote: post #37

Yeah I really wish we could go back to the time where children of aristocrats were the only ones who could afford to travel, influenza was murdering percentages of the human popluation and most black people were second class citizens. -a sensible, law abiding (white upper-middle class) Englishman Really a shame we've given it all up. edit. Wow I am loving this thread, these immigration threads bring out the best part…

You've violated the guidelines in several ways with this comment and the ones downthread. Please don't derail threads with unproductive sarcasm, complain about downvotes, make generalizations about the community, and throw insults. This is not the kind of civil behavior that Hacker News asks for, and it seriously thwarts our attempts to gratify our intellectual curiosity, so we ban accounts that do this. We've detach…

If you want to ban me for insulting racists than by all means, go ahead. FWIW I didn't make any generalizations about the community, I simply said immigration threads bring out the best in it!

Really love that "making a generalization about the community" is against the rules but feel free to make generalizations about immigrants, the poor, or any other class of people that might not actually be a large portion of this community.

Remember kids, if you thinly veil your racism in economic terms, nobody's going to hold you responsible for it. Lee Atwater would be proud.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#175

Post by zajd »

ori_b wrote: post #169
zajd wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I disagree the word racist evokes a pretty emotional response regardless of how many times you use it. 2016 and all that. Just look at how much effort you're putting in to trying to prove what a "real racist" is?

You're right, I should accept that the meaning is diluted enough that good childhood memories makes me racist. It's 2016 and all.

No you should probably accept that racism is part of the human condition and acting like it doesn't exist is about as intellectually riveting as the latest Micheal Bay film.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#176

Post by lrem »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #143
Inufu wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a good chance that anything on RT is either false or presented in a very misleading way - they are a propaganda outfit for the Kremlin after all. See eg. http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/09/daily-c... or http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/putin-fights-wa...

tl;dr; you want people to think the facts presented are false but you have no actual argument against them. Is wikipedia also Russian propaganda?

How is Wikipedia protected from state actors biasing the content?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#177

Post by truth_sentinell »

wacowz wrote: post #74
truth_sentinell wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of legal barriers kenyans have to travel?

A good number of countries require visa. Being granted a visa is often an uphill task, with demands made for your bank statements, proof of income to ascertain you have a job to come back to, proof of hotel bookings for where you are headed or proof you have somebody to host you, any other proof to show that you are indeed visiting to do what you are claiming is the purpose of the trip. It's an endless list of demand…

Well, that's for everybody. I can't go to the USA because they demand visa with the same requirements you said.

Although there are many countries that don't demand visa, they will only allow you in for 3 months maximum.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#178

Post by ori_b »

zajd wrote: post #175
ori_b wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, I should accept that the meaning is diluted enough that good childhood memories makes me racist. It's 2016 and all.

No you should probably accept that racism is part of the human condition and acting like it doesn't exist is about as intellectually riveting as the latest Micheal Bay film.

Yes, we agree. It's 2016, and we should accept that 'racist' means approximately the same thing as 'person'.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#179

Post by CalRobert »

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #39
CalRobert wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support freedom of movement, but I also understand people's worries about unmanageable burdens placed on support systems for a nation's people. Of course, if there were no support systems this would be a moot point, and is one of the few counterarguments to, say, increased public healthcare or pensions, that made sense. HN has a lot of proponents of universal basic income. Say a small country, maybe Iceland with on…

I think you make excellent points. I think where we'd probably disagree is in how quickly (or easily) we'd reach some sort of equillibrium state. You are absolutely right that countries which enjoy greater public benefits would likely enjoy a greater influx of people. But I disagree that that's necessarily a bad thing. I'm a firm believer that there is no such thing as a free lunch. And if residents of Iceland make i…

Thanks for raising some really valid counterpoints to my argument, while framing this as a contest of ideas and not people. I really appreciate it. I imagine others on HN do too.

Regarding "I don't see how it is a (globally-speaking) bad thing to have migration make it so that enough people decide to move there to make it less feasible." - to be honest I tend to agree in principle, but I worry that the practical effect would be far more negative. Making the decision to move less feasible seems to mean making the destination country less desirable, which sucks and is a bummer for those who live there. Then again, there's nothing fair about me being paid ten times as much as someone in India to work with databases. I just happen to like the stuff I can buy by making 10x as much cash.

I want to live in a liberal democracy with a high standard of living and low carbon emissions (so apartments close to amenities with lots of bike lanes and very few automobiles) with a steady or slowly decreasing population, because there are too many people in the world for it to support. If such a place existed (Denmark comes to mind, or perhaps Japan), it would probably be a desirable target for migrants from all over the world, which would strain the systems that could make such a place possible. How do you build schools to house families with 4+ children when your budget was built on the idea that you would need to build no more, or slowly downsize them with time? How do you allocate land?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#180

Post by Havoc »

kobeya wrote: post #125
Havoc wrote: post #3

I'm fine with the controls part, but can't we at least get rid of the paper documents? People just lose them anyway. Surely a combination of say retina + finger + voice etc would provide more security than could ever be needed...

Biometrics can be faked. And then what do you do? Get facial surgery?

Everything can be faked - a combination of various biometrics would be significantly harder to fake than the current systems in place.
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