When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas • Hacker News Board

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#141

Post by wtbob » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:17 PM UTC

zajd wrote: post #98

beowulf_cluster wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it makes people uncomfortable to be told their [sic] racist for calling 100 years ago a golden age... maybe they should be uncomfortable? Glossing over the faulty logic, is your entire motive for posting here is to distress the top-level commenter? You say you're not here to sway opinions. So you're just here to troll for the sake of trolling? I'll admit this is refreshingly candid, but could you just refrain fr…

Again, not trolling, just giving a place for the educated among us to click a button and say "hey, this stupid racist shit doesn't represent the HN community" Quite frankly the idea that we should treat all ideas with civility and respect doesn't really cut it in reality.

What the heck is stupid or racist about the quote I posted? Here it is, again:

'Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman. He could live where he liked and as he liked. He had no official number or identity card. He could travel abroad or leave his country for ever without a passport or any sort of official permission. He could exchange his money for any other currency without restriction or limit. He could buy goods from any country in the world on the same terms as he bought goods at home. For that matter, a foreigner could spend his life in this country without permit and without informing the police.'

There's nothing in there about race! Not a single thing.

> Quite frankly the idea that we should treat all ideas with civility and respect doesn't really cut it in reality.

Well, since you started the incivility: you're a complete and utter dingbat. Not every issue is about race. This issue isn't about race.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#142

Post by zajd » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

wtbob wrote: post #141

zajd wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, not trolling, just giving a place for the educated among us to click a button and say "hey, this stupid racist shit doesn't represent the HN community" Quite frankly the idea that we should treat all ideas with civility and respect doesn't really cut it in reality.

What the heck is stupid or racist about the quote I posted? Here it is, again: 'Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman. He could live where he liked and as he liked. He had no official number or identity card. He could travel abroad or leave his country for ever without a passport or any sort o…

> Well, since you started the incivility: you're a complete and utter dingbat. Not every issue is about race. This issue isn't about race.

If you think you can have a discussion about immigration in 2016 using a "sensible, law-abiding Englishman in 1914" as your "look at what we've lost"... I just don't know what to tell you. The lack of you getting why there's a huge racial component to posting something like that... well, it's kind of beyond me.

Context matters, there's no reason to pretend like we've lost anything since 1914. The only people who have lost anything are the most privileged of people on this planet.

edit. Really not surprisingly looking at your post history "people's wages should be dictated by the market" haha why don't you just make your username "PrivilegeOwns69"

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#143

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

Inufu wrote: post #138

yummyfajitas wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the relevance to this discussion? Are you actually asserting that the facts raised there are false, or are you simply trying to get people to dismiss true statements?

There's a good chance that anything on RT is either false or presented in a very misleading way - they are a propaganda outfit for the Kremlin after all. See eg. http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/09/daily-c... or http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/putin-fights-wa...

tl;dr; you want people to think the facts presented are false but you have no actual argument against them.

Is wikipedia also Russian propaganda?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#144

Post by zajd » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

ori_b wrote: post #135

zajd wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a white person laments about how much "we've given up" since 1910 it is a racist action. Sorry the truth hurts. It's similar to those that look back on the 50s as a golden age in America. Sure, it's golden if you're a white male. We haven't given up shit since 1910, progress has been unimaginable and it's actually EASIER to travel internationally now than it was then. So yeah, if you're going to pretend like 191…

Yep. Racism has become a meaningless accusation, tossed around so lightly that I can conclude nothing when I hear it. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave me a good term for the people like the ones that murdered most of my grandmother's family because of their race.

If you don't think a good portion of the right wing in first world countries wouldn't gladly return to that state of affairs maybe you should take a look at the Trump campaign. Facism is alive and well my friend.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#145

Post by turar » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

zajd wrote: post #130

ori_b wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see that the word "racism" has ceased to have meaning. "I wish there was less passport control and easier migration." "RACIST!"

When a white person laments about how much "we've given up" since 1910 it is a racist action. Sorry the truth hurts. It's similar to those that look back on the 50s as a golden age in America. Sure, it's golden if you're a white male. We haven't given up shit since 1910, progress has been unimaginable and it's actually EASIER to travel internationally now than it was then. So yeah, if you're going to pretend like 191…

It's not easier if you're from the wrong country, or surprise, of wrong color or religion. Refugee crisis is still here. So saying what you said can just as easily be labeled racist.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#146

Post by ori_b » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

zajd wrote: post #144

ori_b wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Racism has become a meaningless accusation, tossed around so lightly that I can conclude nothing when I hear it. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave me a good term for the people like the ones that murdered most of my grandmother's family because of their race.

If you don't think a good portion of the right wing in first world countries wouldn't gladly return to that state of affairs maybe you should take a look at the Trump campaign. Facism is alive and well my friend.

What, where most people have no air conditioning, no cars, no plumbing, no internet, no refrigeration? Where most jobs are back breaking subsistence farming, and almost all the rest are marginally better factory jobs?

If you think most humans would return to that, regardless of political affiliation, you're crazy.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#147

Post by zajd » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

ori_b wrote: post #146

zajd wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't think a good portion of the right wing in first world countries wouldn't gladly return to that state of affairs maybe you should take a look at the Trump campaign. Facism is alive and well my friend.

What, where most people have no air conditioning, no cars, no plumbing, no internet, no refrigeration? Where most jobs are back breaking subsistence farming, and almost all the rest are marginally better factory jobs? If you think most humans would return to that, regardless of political affiliation, you're crazy.

No to a time where people are murdered simply because of their race. Politicians running for office with 30-40% of the popular vote are calling for nuking countries with no concern for collateral damage... what would you call that?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#148

Post by turar » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

zajd wrote: post #73

slovette wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not being downvoted for your point. You're being downvoted for not contributing to the conversation in a meaningful way and being sarcastic (the poor man's whit). Say something more like: Today the aggregate amount of people that can travel massive distances is much greater than it was before. No longer are a few thousand migrants traveling through a country every year, today it's literally millions. Control c…

It's the internet. I'm not writing to change minds, I'm writing pretty much to the audience that already agrees with me. Nobody thinks we're going to have a productive discussion about race in the HN comments, way better to just point out the hypocrisy and move on. Truth of the matter is the comments that are most relevant get floated to the top and if someone's gonna say some ignorant shit they ought to be called ou…

Do you have any references to support your claim that before 1914 travel was more restricted for someone of similar means from Asia, Africa, or Latin America?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#149

Post by plandis » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #29

The UK has obviously seen a lot of debate about immigration recently, around the Brexit referendum. I've often felt like non-EU immigration was the elephant in the room during all this. 'Leave' voters have often been portrayed as racist bigots by liberal 'Remain' voters. (I'm one of the latter, and I've been guilty of this myself at times). But if we extend the same logic to the whole world, isn't the EU basically a…

Nationality doesn't necessarly equate with race. For instance I'm sure that it doesn't matter if you're black or white German when receiving benefits of EU. It does matter what nationality you are.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#150

Post by ori_b » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

zajd wrote: post #147

ori_b wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, where most people have no air conditioning, no cars, no plumbing, no internet, no refrigeration? Where most jobs are back breaking subsistence farming, and almost all the rest are marginally better factory jobs? If you think most humans would return to that, regardless of political affiliation, you're crazy.

No to a time where people are murdered simply because of their race. Politicians running for office with 30-40% of the popular vote are calling for nuking countries with no concern for collateral damage... what would you call that?

Your idea of 1914 involves a lot more nukes than mine does.