When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas • Hacker News Board

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#121

Post by goblin89 » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:34 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #83

mynameislegion wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in modern times, international air tickets are more expensive and worldwide wages lower than you imagine.

Perhaps, but there are other options -- international bus tickets are pretty cheap. So is the ferry between, for example, Morocco and Spain. Plenty of people could afford this, or have friends/relatives in wealthy countries who could pay for them.

It is actually easier to visit some countries by air today. Visa on arrival, visa-free transit or stay—these options can be available only at airports.

Passport control as immigration regulation/deterrent definitely rings true to me, and some countries see less need for it with richer travelers.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#122

Post by zajd » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:35 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #116

zajd wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, not trolling, just giving a place for the educated among us to click a button and say "hey, this stupid racist shit doesn't represent the HN community" Quite frankly the idea that we should treat all ideas with civility and respect doesn't really cut it in reality.

>" Again, not trolling, just giving a place for the educated among us to click a button and say "hey, this stupid racist shit doesn't represent the HN community" " Ironically, that last part is probably a good part of why you are being down voted.

I honestly have no problems with it. I know these are controversial issues today and taking the stance of "we shouldn't have to put up with racist rhetoric in 2016 in the developed world" is not going to be a popular one, especially when you use sarcasm to convey it.

There are assuredly people who will say "it's 2016, I should be able to have my own opinions, whatever they are, and be treated as equal to others" I disagree.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#123

Post by zajd » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:36 PM UTC

rustynails wrote: post #118

zajd wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, not trolling, just giving a place for the educated among us to click a button and say "hey, this stupid racist shit doesn't represent the HN community" Quite frankly the idea that we should treat all ideas with civility and respect doesn't really cut it in reality.

I consider Hacker News one of the few open minded forums today. Where a comment adds value, it's sometimes up voted. Your original comment didn't add value to the discussion and I doubt its accuracy. Take for example, during early conflicts (around 0AD), people of all social standings were known to move from city to city. The Mongols (although much later, 1200s) used this mass migration as a technique to weaken econo…

The post I was responding too was saying literally nothing about the mongols using mass migration as a technique to weaken economies. It's irrelevant to the point I was making.

It doesn't surprise me that most of the people attacking the way I'm speaking also have a backdoor opinion about the content as well.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#124

Post by MarkMc » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:38 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #110

MarkMc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The freedom of movement within the EU is definitely not based on race, but on the citizenship of any of the Schengen Area countries. That's true, but can't it still be considered racist? It may not be direct, intentional racism, but the net result of UK policy is that white people can enter the UK much easier than black or brown people. If I require that my employees be at least 6 feet tall, isn't that a sexist hir…

> If I require that my employees be at least 6 feet tall, is that a sexist hiring policy? Do people who are at least 6 feet tall make better employees? If you require loan applicants to have income sufficient to make the loan payments, and that is true of more white applicants than black applicants, is that a racist policy?

That's a great point. I was thinking of a job where height is not an advantage, but perhaps the better analogy is to a job where height is an advantage and so the policy is not sexist/racist.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#125

Post by kobeya » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:38 PM UTC

Havoc wrote: post #3

I'm fine with the controls part, but can't we at least get rid of the paper documents? People just lose them anyway. Surely a combination of say retina + finger + voice etc would provide more security than could ever be needed...

Biometrics can be faked. And then what do you do? Get facial surgery?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#126

Post by thescriptkiddie » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:39 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #18

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #11

I'm appalled at how many self-described liberals I know who consider themselves to be guardians of civil liberties not bat an eye to these restrictions. The matter of fact is that all the restrictions we put in place with respect to the free movement of peoples -- and the accompanying restrictions around employment, leisure, etc. -- are single-handedly the single biggest breach of human rights in the world. It is abs…

I support freedom of movement, but I also understand people's worries about unmanageable burdens placed on support systems for a nation's people. Of course, if there were no support systems this would be a moot point, and is one of the few counterarguments to, say, increased public healthcare or pensions, that made sense. HN has a lot of proponents of universal basic income. Say a small country, maybe Iceland with on…

You're missing the fourth option, which is to continue providing benefits to everyone (including new immigrants), and raise revenue enough to cover the added expense. Spending more money didn't automatically equal bankruptcy, governments have essentially unlimited capacity to raise taxes and issue bonds.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#127

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:39 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #102

yummyfajitas wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If helping people is what we care about, perhaps we should consider whether unrestricted immigration or basic income/other welfare state policies will help more. From what I can tell, neither BI nor traditional welfare states can come even remotely close to the benefits of open borders. It kind of makes one wonder whether helping people is the real goal of BI proponents. As for the "sudden influx," I think it's impor…

For anyone unaware: note that the Daily Mail is the most openly xenophobic newspaper in Britain, and RT (Russia Today) is a state-funded propaganda TV network. Russia has a clear interest in destabilizing the European Union. The Daily Mail's motive is less clear.

What is the relevance to this discussion? Are you actually asserting that the facts raised there are false, or are you simply trying to get people to dismiss true statements?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#128

Post by ori_b » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:41 PM UTC

zajd wrote: post #122

zo1 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>" Again, not trolling, just giving a place for the educated among us to click a button and say "hey, this stupid racist shit doesn't represent the HN community" " Ironically, that last part is probably a good part of why you are being down voted.

I honestly have no problems with it. I know these are controversial issues today and taking the stance of "we shouldn't have to put up with racist rhetoric in 2016 in the developed world" is not going to be a popular one, especially when you use sarcasm to convey it. There are assuredly people who will say "it's 2016, I should be able to have my own opinions, whatever they are, and be treated as equal to others" I di…

I see that the word "racism" has ceased to have meaning.

"I wish there was less passport control and easier migration."

"RACIST!"

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#129

Post by empath75 » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:42 PM UTC

tarancato wrote: post #59

bisRepetita wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that Chris Rock has the best summary of it with his "I'm American" routine: "What, you think you’re better than somebody from France ’cause you came out of a pussy in Detroit?" Nothing specifically American about it though. Many people in France think they're better than Syrian refugees because they're born from a pussy in Paris. Full transcript: http://www.cswap.com/2004/Chris_Rock:_Never_Scared/cap/en/25...

The ancestors of that pussy in Paris built an advanced society with equal rights, education, respect, etc. That's why people born from a French pussy deserve that, while people from other societies do not. Is it our fault that other people that have had the same hundreds of years to build advanced societies haven't done it? Do we have to literally live worse because of it?

You deserve precisely nothing because of what your ancestors did. Everyone deserves the same human rights on the basis of being born human.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#130

Post by zajd » Sun, Oct 02, 2016, 4:43 PM UTC

ori_b wrote: post #128

zajd wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly have no problems with it. I know these are controversial issues today and taking the stance of "we shouldn't have to put up with racist rhetoric in 2016 in the developed world" is not going to be a popular one, especially when you use sarcasm to convey it. There are assuredly people who will say "it's 2016, I should be able to have my own opinions, whatever they are, and be treated as equal to others" I di…

I see that the word "racism" has ceased to have meaning. "I wish there was less passport control and easier migration." "RACIST!"

When a white person laments about how much "we've given up" since 1910 it is a racist action. Sorry the truth hurts. It's similar to those that look back on the 50s as a golden age in America. Sure, it's golden if you're a white male.

We haven't given up shit since 1910, progress has been unimaginable and it's actually EASIER to travel internationally now than it was then. So yeah, if you're going to pretend like 1910 was better for this shit in some way, it's only going to be for a very select group of people.