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When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

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Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#71
post #29

The UK has obviously seen a lot of debate about immigration recently, around the Brexit referendum. I've often felt like non-EU immigration was the elephant in the room during all this. 'Leave' voters have often been portrayed as racist bigots by liberal 'Remain' voters. (I'm one of the latter, and I've been guilty of this myself at times). But if we extend the same logic to the whole world, isn't the EU basically a…

>> Why should a French, German or Romanian arbitrarily have special rights to enter my country, while an Indian, Mexican or Nigerian is subjected to ever harsher visa rules?

Without saying that this is right, the general logic is that the countries in the EU have met certain criteria (economic, legal, etc.) in order to join the club. The citizens of these countries have mostly similar standards of living, education, judicial systems, etc. Hence, allowing free movement is not a big deal because it is assumed the citizens of one country won't move en masse to another, and if a significant number of them do, they won't be a financial burden on the host country. There are also a bunch of reciprocal and cost-sharing agreements (e.g. medical services may be charged to the country of origin, etc.)

This whole framework and inter-country cooperation doesn't exist with respect to countries outside of the EU, and that's why these countries aren't willing to take a chance with universal freedom of movement. (Just a recent example comes to mind where a bunch of non-EU migrants were deported from Greece for various violations and their country of origin refused to accept them. In the EU any member state can deport/remove citizens of another member for certain violations and the country of origin is legally required to accept them.)

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#72
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if that's entirely fair, the pro-Brexit people had strong opinions about Poles and Italians too.

Eh the pro-brexit people probably feel they're brown anyways.

Based on what - your own prejudice?

I think people in Britain, and indeed many 'white' countries, are less bothered by the colour of one's skin than the tone of their culture and intent behind their immigrating.

If you're not coming here to integrate, but just coming for money and with no thought of being part of my culture, why on Earth would I joyously welcome you?

What would be said if I were to move to somewhere like the middle east and insist upon being a cider-swilling yob?

.

Disclaimer: My partner is Italian and I'm a cider-swilling British yob. Well, a bit of a boor at least.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#73
post #37

Yeah I really wish we could go back to the time where children of aristocrats were the only ones who could afford to travel, influenza was murdering percentages of the human popluation and most black people were second class citizens. -a sensible, law abiding (white upper-middle class) Englishman Really a shame we've given it all up. edit. Wow I am loving this thread, these immigration threads bring out the best part…

You're not being downvoted for your point. You're being downvoted for not contributing to the conversation in a meaningful way and being sarcastic (the poor man's whit). Say something more like: Today the aggregate amount of people that can travel massive distances is much greater than it was before. No longer are a few thousand migrants traveling through a country every year, today it's literally millions. Control c…

It's the internet. I'm not writing to change minds, I'm writing pretty much to the audience that already agrees with me. Nobody thinks we're going to have a productive discussion about race in the HN comments, way better to just point out the hypocrisy and move on. Truth of the matter is the comments that are most relevant get floated to the top and if someone's gonna say some ignorant shit they ought to be called out on it.

I don't mind being downvoted, I honestly find it amusing that if you say something wrong, people will respond. Say something wrong they don't like, people attack you. Say something right that people don't like? They downvote silently.

If it makes people uncomfortable to be told their racist for calling 100 years ago a golden age... maybe they should be uncomfortable?

TLDR I'll save my effort trying change hearts and minds for when it's worth it.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#74
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often see stories of people quitting their jobs and travelling the world and how awesome it is. It's sth I look forward to doing but being the holder of a Kenyan passport, I highly doubt I'll actually manage to "travel around the world", given all the legal barriers setup against passport holders from developing countries.

What kind of legal barriers kenyans have to travel?

A good number of countries require visa. Being granted a visa is often an uphill task, with demands made for your bank statements, proof of income to ascertain you have a job to come back to, proof of hotel bookings for where you are headed or proof you have somebody to host you, any other proof to show that you are indeed visiting to do what you are claiming is the purpose of the trip. It's an endless list of demands and they could still deny you the visa.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#75
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh the pro-brexit people probably feel they're brown anyways.

Based on what - your own prejudice? I think people in Britain, and indeed many 'white' countries, are less bothered by the colour of one's skin than the tone of their culture and intent behind their immigrating. If you're not coming here to integrate, but just coming for money and with no thought of being part of my culture, why on Earth would I joyously welcome you? What would be said if I were to move to somewhere…

Words like "tone of their culture" are exactly the problem. Can you imagine if you weren't allowed to travel somewhere because of the tone of your culture? Do you enjoy being restricted from travelling to Saudi Arabia because you popped out of the wrong vagina?

I'm not from the UK but I can tell you firmly that words like "black culture" are just racist dogwhistles here in the US

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#76
post #64
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if we extend the same logic to the whole world, isn't the EU basically a racist organisation? Why should a French, German or Romanian arbitrarily have special rights to enter my country, while an Indian, Mexican or Nigerian is subjected to ever harsher visa rules? Because that right is reciprocated to British people in those countries!

So you're saying the UK would agree to free movement of people from Nigeria, provided that it was reciprocal?

[deleted]

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#77
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what - your own prejudice? I think people in Britain, and indeed many 'white' countries, are less bothered by the colour of one's skin than the tone of their culture and intent behind their immigrating. If you're not coming here to integrate, but just coming for money and with no thought of being part of my culture, why on Earth would I joyously welcome you? What would be said if I were to move to somewhere…

Words like "tone of their culture" are exactly the problem. Can you imagine if you weren't allowed to travel somewhere because of the tone of your culture? Do you enjoy being restricted from travelling to Saudi Arabia because you popped out of the wrong vagina? I'm not from the UK but I can tell you firmly that words like "black culture" are just racist dogwhistles here in the US

Travel, or permanently relocate? There's a distinction - quite massive one. No one gives a hoot about tourists.

And I meant with the self-denigration in my post to imply that my own 'culture' has its own tone - as indeed does every culture. It's a question of whether they have the potential to be inter-compatible.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply a replacement of informal barriers with formal ones, plus compensation of the lowering of travel and communication costs due to technology: someone who traveled abroad in the XIXth century was either well-off so he would pass any currently existing barriers easily, or really really needed it so he would do it, too. With international air ticket worth less than a good meal, some other barrier had to be con…

> With international air ticket worth less than a good meal Jesus Christ, where are you getting your lunch from?

[deleted]

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#79

I'm appalled at how many self-described liberals I know who consider themselves to be guardians of civil liberties not bat an eye to these restrictions. The matter of fact is that all the restrictions we put in place with respect to the free movement of peoples -- and the accompanying restrictions around employment, leisure, etc. -- are single-handedly the single biggest breach of human rights in the world. It is abs…

This is a very idealistic goal, but we still have no solution to issues like how the state would balance the books if the population is in constant flux. If the number of contributors suddenly decreases or the number of consumers of social services shoots up, then the state will simply go bankrupt.

If you allow total freedom of movement, you're basically creating a system similar to a business where you have zero predictability and control over your income and your costs.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply a replacement of informal barriers with formal ones, plus compensation of the lowering of travel and communication costs due to technology: someone who traveled abroad in the XIXth century was either well-off so he would pass any currently existing barriers easily, or really really needed it so he would do it, too. With international air ticket worth less than a good meal, some other barrier had to be con…

> With international air ticket worth less than a good meal Jesus Christ, where are you getting your lunch from?

Ryanair, I guess. Verona to Brussels is 8 Euros. A "meal deal" on the plane is 10.
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