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When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

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Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#61

Post by wreft »

bisRepetita wrote: post #12
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #5

Passports and citizenship in many ways are the most unfair thing in the world as your place of birth influences what you can do in life. For many of us the idea of having a bad passport is only theoretical in nature but it decides many things in life for others and sets stupid arbitrary ceilings that should not exist.

I find that Chris Rock has the best summary of it with his "I'm American" routine: "What, you think you’re better than somebody from France ’cause you came out of a pussy in Detroit?" Nothing specifically American about it though. Many people in France think they're better than Syrian refugees because they're born from a pussy in Paris. Full transcript: http://www.cswap.com/2004/Chris_Rock:_Never_Scared/cap/en/25...

I agree that country of origin is 100 percent luck. That doesn't mean all cultures are equal though.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#62

Post by s_kilk »

wtbob wrote: post #26

I'm reminded of this famous piece by A.J.P. Taylor: 'Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman. He could live where he liked and as he liked. He had no official number or identity card. He could travel abroad or leave his country for ever without a passport or any sort of official permission. He c…

> It's hard to believe how much we've given up.

It's weird, for all our progress, our world is more locked down and restricted than ever before.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#63

Post by wreft »

tarancato wrote: post #59
bisRepetita wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that Chris Rock has the best summary of it with his "I'm American" routine: "What, you think you’re better than somebody from France ’cause you came out of a pussy in Detroit?" Nothing specifically American about it though. Many people in France think they're better than Syrian refugees because they're born from a pussy in Paris. Full transcript: http://www.cswap.com/2004/Chris_Rock:_Never_Scared/cap/en/25...

The ancestors of that pussy in Paris built an advanced society with equal rights, education, respect, etc. That's why people born from a French pussy deserve that, while people from other societies do not. Is it our fault that other people that have had the same hundreds of years to build advanced societies haven't done it? Do we have to literally live worse because of it?

People from other societies deserve all these good things too. Uncontrolled immigration may not be the best way to achieve this though.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#64

Post by J-dawg »

maccard wrote: post #54
J-dawg wrote: post #29

The UK has obviously seen a lot of debate about immigration recently, around the Brexit referendum. I've often felt like non-EU immigration was the elephant in the room during all this. 'Leave' voters have often been portrayed as racist bigots by liberal 'Remain' voters. (I'm one of the latter, and I've been guilty of this myself at times). But if we extend the same logic to the whole world, isn't the EU basically a…

> But if we extend the same logic to the whole world, isn't the EU basically a racist organisation? Why should a French, German or Romanian arbitrarily have special rights to enter my country, while an Indian, Mexican or Nigerian is subjected to ever harsher visa rules? Because that right is reciprocated to British people in those countries!

So you're saying the UK would agree to free movement of people from Nigeria, provided that it was reciprocal?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#65

Post by slovette »

zajd wrote: post #37

Yeah I really wish we could go back to the time where children of aristocrats were the only ones who could afford to travel, influenza was murdering percentages of the human popluation and most black people were second class citizens. -a sensible, law abiding (white upper-middle class) Englishman Really a shame we've given it all up. edit. Wow I am loving this thread, these immigration threads bring out the best part…

You're not being downvoted for your point. You're being downvoted for not contributing to the conversation in a meaningful way and being sarcastic (the poor man's whit).

Say something more like: Today the aggregate amount of people that can travel massive distances is much greater than it was before. No longer are a few thousand migrants traveling through a country every year, today it's literally millions. Control comes with that. As technological advancement makes access easier, the need to control that access becomes more important. An obvious recent tale of similarities is the internet.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#66

Post by tdkl »

icebraining wrote: post #20
insickness wrote: post #15

This discussion is synonymous with whether countries should even have borders. If borders aren't policed, they may as well not even exist. It would be great if all people were kind and caring, if there were no corruption, war, terrorism, religious fanaticism, crime or discrepancies in standards of living. But we've seen over and over that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The problematic migrant situati…

The problematic migrant situation in Europe is a good example of that. Is it? Are illegal immigrants more likely to cause problems that both natives and legal immigrants? From what I can tell, at least the attacks that make the news have all been perpetrated by people born and raised in Europe. EDIT: http://www.dw.com/en/report-refugees-have-not-increased-crim...

Cologne rape happened after this article, so did the massacres in France and Germany.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#67

Post by tarancato »

wreft wrote: post #63
tarancato wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ancestors of that pussy in Paris built an advanced society with equal rights, education, respect, etc. That's why people born from a French pussy deserve that, while people from other societies do not. Is it our fault that other people that have had the same hundreds of years to build advanced societies haven't done it? Do we have to literally live worse because of it?

People from other societies deserve all these good things too. Uncontrolled immigration may not be the best way to achieve this though.

No they do not deserve anything they and their ancestors haven't worked for. Nobody just "deserves" anything.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#68

Post by jsingleton »

J-dawg wrote: post #29

The UK has obviously seen a lot of debate about immigration recently, around the Brexit referendum. I've often felt like non-EU immigration was the elephant in the room during all this. 'Leave' voters have often been portrayed as racist bigots by liberal 'Remain' voters. (I'm one of the latter, and I've been guilty of this myself at times). But if we extend the same logic to the whole world, isn't the EU basically a…

To an extent, technology (and the internet in particular) has made the world a smaller place and reduced the significance of borders. I heard a lot of arguments during the campaign around immigration and jobs but they didn't talk about the impact of technology.

I could write more but I'd just be repeating the blog post I wrote recently (https://unop.uk/automation-and-remote-jobs/). The video in there is worth a watch if you're interested in the early days of Silicon Valley.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#69

Post by ghaff »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #57
anovikov wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply a replacement of informal barriers with formal ones, plus compensation of the lowering of travel and communication costs due to technology: someone who traveled abroad in the XIXth century was either well-off so he would pass any currently existing barriers easily, or really really needed it so he would do it, too. With international air ticket worth less than a good meal, some other barrier had to be con…

> With international air ticket worth less than a good meal Jesus Christ, where are you getting your lunch from?

Low-cost carrier airfares within Europe can be quite cheap. Obviously most international flights from, say, the US are going to be in at least the hundreds of dollars.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#70

Post by jfoster »

CalRobert wrote: post #7
jstanley wrote: post #2

A large majority of people view me as a crackpot when I say passports should be abolished, and free men ought to be able to travel the planet freely. It never occurred to me that the world was like this as recently as 100 years ago!

I suspect it has a lot to do with the rise of relatively cheap global travel and strong disparity in the median wealth of different nations. 100+ years ago could you travel from a poor country to a wealthy country with relative ease and expect to raise your own standard of living? Either the journey was expensive and arduous, or the situation in places you could travel to was not likely to be a massive improvement on…

I would also guess that 100 years ago people in poorer countries were also a lot less aware of which places might be better, and how to get to them.
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