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How to Crash Systemd in One Command

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Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#161

Post by boobsbr »

korethr wrote: post #49
namecast wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. I didn't need anyone to "show up" to replace my init system in production across several thousand servers, and the way systemd "won" that battle wrt Debian was, to be polite, controversial, political and extremely divisive. They sure as heck didn't win because "they showed up and no one else did". They showed up and RedHat's money showed up with them. I hold no animus towards the systemd project'…

> I hold no animus towards the systemd project's goals or aspirations, but I have yet to hear a compelling reason for systemd to be shipping in it's current state. I am, in a way, reminded reminded of PulseAudio. I kept PA of my desktop and laptop for years, having heard about PA being a complex nightmare to configure and make work that caused audio to break. Eventually, there was an application I needed to use that…

I'm still bitter about PulseAudio...

It completely fucked up the audio on my desktop at the time. Lots of cracking and hissing, some really weird delays as well.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#162

Post by boobsbr »

digi_owl wrote: post #118
kefka wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With PulseAudio, I have 1 singular feature that makes most people wow: When I plug in any new audio device, whatever I'm playing/recording automatically sinks to the most recent device. Seamlessly. So if I'm on mail.google.com and a GVoice call comes in, I can take the call, and during the call, plug in my USB headset. It just works. Mac can't do that. Windows can't do that. Linux/PulseAudio can. And that kicks ass.

USB headsets are a technological abomination. You are talking about a headset welded to a soundcard, that you then insert into a data bus each time you want to use it.

That's actually a pretty funny definition.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#163

Post by fridsun »

wmf wrote: post #64
djsumdog wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't live in the open source world of the 1990s. People don't make this stuff in their basements. What was a community of devs that made things in their own time has turned into a huge industry supported system of semi-bullshit sharing. The OSS devs of the 90s wanted open source end products: a GIMP that could replace Photoshop. A blender that could replace 3D Studio. Today we mostly have OSS middleware. As the o…

Is Red Hat funding over 50% of Linux development? If systemd was so bad it seems like maybe our corporate overlords like IBM, Google, Intel, or Canonical could have spoken up or even banded together to compete with it, but they didn't.

Why would IBM care? It's AIX is live and well.

Canonical tried to compete with Upstart but failed.

What's curious is why Debian fell. It was the cornerstone.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#164

Post by fridsun »

kefka wrote: post #81
korethr wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hold no animus towards the systemd project's goals or aspirations, but I have yet to hear a compelling reason for systemd to be shipping in it's current state. I am, in a way, reminded reminded of PulseAudio. I kept PA of my desktop and laptop for years, having heard about PA being a complex nightmare to configure and make work that caused audio to break. Eventually, there was an application I needed to use that…

With PulseAudio, I have 1 singular feature that makes most people wow: When I plug in any new audio device, whatever I'm playing/recording automatically sinks to the most recent device. Seamlessly. So if I'm on mail.google.com and a GVoice call comes in, I can take the call, and during the call, plug in my USB headset. It just works. Mac can't do that. Windows can't do that. Linux/PulseAudio can. And that kicks ass.

Windows definitely can do that.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#165

Post by fridsun »

digi_owl wrote: post #118
kefka wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With PulseAudio, I have 1 singular feature that makes most people wow: When I plug in any new audio device, whatever I'm playing/recording automatically sinks to the most recent device. Seamlessly. So if I'm on mail.google.com and a GVoice call comes in, I can take the call, and during the call, plug in my USB headset. It just works. Mac can't do that. Windows can't do that. Linux/PulseAudio can. And that kicks ass.

USB headsets are a technological abomination. You are talking about a headset welded to a soundcard, that you then insert into a data bus each time you want to use it.

Now that Apple ditched the headphone jack in iPhone 7...

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#166

Post by fridsun »

geofft wrote: post #120
lasermike026 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Unix philosophy is most applicable in user space. It's a philosophy not a law. I didn't say Systemd was bad just that it doesn't observe the Unix philosophy. Crashing an init process is a very bad thing, is it not? Wouldn't less surface area be a better approach?

Yes, I argued in another comment that it would be a good idea to split systemd into two processes, where PID 1 does nothing other than reap children, send info to PID 2 actual systemd, and restart PID 2 if needed. But it seems to make sense for PID 2 to be as monolithic as systemd currently is (which is not very monolithic; udev, journald, D-Bus, etc. are separate daemons).

You just described how daemontools family works. They are less monolithic than systemd because they didn't subsume udev.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#167

Post by fridsun »

georgyo wrote: post #28
fapjacks wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Systemd is winning because they showed up and basically nobody else did" I can't see how you would qualify this statement, which is utterly false. Specifically, systemd adoption was the result of political pressure by LP (the author), who works at Red Hat. There are plenty of other choices out there. The idea that systemd won because of some kind of meritocracy is wrong. It was mostly political with some technical…

systemd is by far the best linux init system. The options are sysvinit, OpenRC, Upstart, and systemd. Of those, the only reasonable choice is systemd. Upstart was almost good, but its really frustrating to use. OpenRC is decent, but confusing. systemd solved problems, not only that it solved them well. The scope creep of systemd is something that is a bit alarming, however even with the creep it's doing a good job. T…

Clearly you have missed this article: http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/09/05/0/

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#168

Post by fridsun »

digi_owl wrote: post #113
djsumdog wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working at a Docker shop for a while and I have a feeling it will be the future for running services. It makes systemd somewhat irrelevant. There are still a lot of issues I've had with Docker, which I won't go into. It also can't replace everything running on your Linux system. But it's a neat idea and big players use it in production for huge workloads. Now the whole AWS-containers, docker-machine, swarm,…

Nah, systemd is angling to supplant docker for containers. There is already a great deal of bad blood between the two because of the reworked cgroups management. And there is also the likes of CoreOS that is basically systemd-the-distro. Never mind that we have the likes of xdg-app/flatpak that is basically aiming for what you are thinking about, and it is systemd dependent.

It was quite amusing seeing systemd causing systemd-specific trouble in CoreOS development though, such as systemd requiring too much privilege when running inside container. Many people just use s6 happily.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#169

Post by aorth »

5ilv3r wrote: post #29

Ran as a normal user on debian jessie, and now ssh logins are delayed by 30 seconds. I don't see any other problems yet, but this is a VM host and so leave it running for a while for fun. :)

Ran it on an up to date Ubuntu 16.04 and lost the ability to run any systemctl commands like status, restart, etc. Web server and other system services were still working, but I couldn't `reboot` or `systemctl halt` etc... had to hard reboot the VPS from hosting console. :)
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