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The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

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Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#91
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't put people in jail for pot, at least not here in California. We don't have the room. Officially in this state 0.3% of inmates are in for "possession for sale" and "sales" of marijuana. They don't even list simple possession. http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Offender_Information... It's true federal penitentiaries have a larger percentage of inmates in for simple possession, but the federal prison popu…

If the government couldn't make other charges stick, they shouldn't be in jail.

I absolutely agree. But I also think those people will find themselves in jail even in the absence of federal drug laws. Seems to be how things work, as we have given federal prosecutors far too many tools to work with.

Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#92
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest beneficiaries of decriminalized marijuana are the people who are no longer criminals for smoking a joint.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree marijuana should be legalized. I was simply commenting on the ridiculousness of the Koch brothers version of "libertarianism". It reminds me of the people calling the nordic countries "socialist" (remind me which means of production the state has forcefully taken in Sweden). Words have meaning, and bastardizing them annoys me.

> It reminds me of the people calling the nordic countries "socialist" (remind me which means of production the state has forcefully taken in Sweden). Words have meaning, and bastardizing them annoys me.

Words have meaning, and they also evolve. You'll have a much easier time understanding others' meaning and communicating with them in kind if you recognize that in many contexts:

- Social democracy has largely been associated with the word socialism.

- Communism has largely been associated with the word socialism. (Side-note: this is the association you appear to be making; many communists would wholesale reject the notion of the state seizing the means of production, or for that matter the notion of the state as a legitimate institution.)

- Communism basically doesn't exist in the broader vocabulary, except as an historical marker for the Soviet Union, and a geopolitical classification of countries like China or Cuba; to the extent it can be associated with any word today, it's anarchism and only among self-identifying anarchists.

- Anarchism has always been aligned with communism except in terms of the question of the state.

- Big-L Libertarians are largely an ideological faction of the right-wing/Republicans.

- Democrats and Republicans occupy a narrow spectrum of corporatism (though that is increasingly expanding rightward).

- Small-l libertarians are more frequently associated with the word anarchism, which is resented by pretty much everyone who cares.

(Full disclosure since at least my clarity if not my characterization displays a bias: I am an anarchist, of the communist variety, and I tend to view social democracy as harm reduction.)

Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#93

I would express the same sentiment about illegal immigrants. This is to all the people who support Donald Trump's rhetoric about deporting all 11 million undocumented immigrants. These people fled the drug gangs and violence that our war on drugs helped create (think fleeing ISIS) and came to work jobs no one else would take and make a better life for their family. Yes technically they broke a law. If you're going to…

To be fair, I'm guessing most of the hard line conservatives advocating mass deportation actually don't smoke pot at all.

Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#94

I would express the same sentiment about illegal immigrants. This is to all the people who support Donald Trump's rhetoric about deporting all 11 million undocumented immigrants. These people fled the drug gangs and violence that our war on drugs helped create (think fleeing ISIS) and came to work jobs no one else would take and make a better life for their family. Yes technically they broke a law. If you're going to…

To be fair, I'm guessing most of the hard line conservatives advocating mass deportation actually don't smoke pot at all.

You're right, they're much more likely to have a prescription opiate habit.

Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#95

I would express the same sentiment about illegal immigrants. This is to all the people who support Donald Trump's rhetoric about deporting all 11 million undocumented immigrants. These people fled the drug gangs and violence that our war on drugs helped create (think fleeing ISIS) and came to work jobs no one else would take and make a better life for their family. Yes technically they broke a law. If you're going to…

Your argument is basically "everybody's doing it, everybody is breaking a law somewhere" and that it's OK for people to break one law because other people are breaking a different law.

I think a more sensible approach than saying "lawbreaking is OK" is for the parties on Capitol Hill to forge a compromise that involves (1) easier legal immigration (2) better funding and more enforcement of existing immigration laws (yes, including significant deportation for illegal immigrants that moved to the US as an adult)

The only way to make progress is to move further away from casual law breaking, not to continue encouraging it. (And yes, a "one time amnesty" as you suggest would encourage more people to break the law.)

Side note: My own personal opinion is that legal immigration should be so easy that virtually anyone can come to our country who doesn't have a criminal history, but that's not on the table as a viable option.

Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#96
post #86
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree marijuana should be legalized. I was simply commenting on the ridiculousness of the Koch brothers version of "libertarianism". It reminds me of the people calling the nordic countries "socialist" (remind me which means of production the state has forcefully taken in Sweden). Words have meaning, and bastardizing them annoys me.

Income tax on companies. That's income that would possibly lead to capital creation/accumulation - and was redirected to other uses by the centralized decision making of the government. I think that counts as "means of production the state has forcefully taken in Sweden".

Having an income tax doesn’t make a country socialist.

Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#97
post #8

New rule suggestion. You must argue at least one flaw in the study or article before pointing out the source may be biased.

Why? Many of the flaws that jump out at me are not so significant that they would be worthy of concern on their own and I appreciated other people clarifying the group's affiliations(I probably wouldn't have been curious enough to go back and read a bit more otherwise).

Though honestly if this is a scientific study it is very strange that they omitted their methodology entirely(how did they select the data, how did they compare the statistics before and after, how did they account for confounding factors, etc). That is pretty fundamental to this kind of analysis and in its absence I would be hesitant to put much faith in even their weak conclusions.

The graphs themselves are definitely interesting though and I would not at all be surprised if they were on the right track.

Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#98

I would express the same sentiment about illegal immigrants. This is to all the people who support Donald Trump's rhetoric about deporting all 11 million undocumented immigrants. These people fled the drug gangs and violence that our war on drugs helped create (think fleeing ISIS) and came to work jobs no one else would take and make a better life for their family. Yes technically they broke a law. If you're going to…

>>The fact is, immigrants have higher labor participation, lower crime rate than the native born population.

Do you believe their higher labor participation is due to the pressures we put on them? What about their children?

At face value, the proposition for wholesale legalization of illegal immigrants is to create several million low income Americans.

Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#99
post #95

I would express the same sentiment about illegal immigrants. This is to all the people who support Donald Trump's rhetoric about deporting all 11 million undocumented immigrants. These people fled the drug gangs and violence that our war on drugs helped create (think fleeing ISIS) and came to work jobs no one else would take and make a better life for their family. Yes technically they broke a law. If you're going to…

Your argument is basically "everybody's doing it, everybody is breaking a law somewhere" and that it's OK for people to break one law because other people are breaking a different law. I think a more sensible approach than saying "lawbreaking is OK" is for the parties on Capitol Hill to forge a compromise that involves (1) easier legal immigration (2) better funding and more enforcement of existing immigration laws (…

Sometimes a law is detrimental to human good. In such cases we should break it.

Re: The Effect of State Marijuana Legalizations

#100
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your quote nails my sentiment on the matter of drug legalisation. The conversation shown here within HN is fascinating, from an outliers perspective. The benefits and effects of the legalisation of Marijuana I would assume, have been well documented by now though the quantity of these reports, I would assume to be small in number. Surely it's a benefit if the number of these reports and articles were increased. Surel…

you failed to read the one paragraph conclusion. both pro and cons arguments were wrong. absolutely nothing relevant has changed. crime didnt go up nor down. neither did taxes. etc. nada. also, ted is only relevant to rich pot heads ;)

"No change" alone is worth legalizing though: because it means you can scale down the militarization of police lead by the war on drugs. It won't happen overnight, it might not bring savings and it will be resisted, but it can result in a significant cultural change that will help in other areas ("black lives matter" and so on).
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