Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy • Hacker News Board

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#81

Post by grecy » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:25 PM UTC

heydenberk wrote: post #57

noobermin wrote: post #5

I always feel like it is unfair how we place different European nations in same category as the US in these rankings or whatever, and for the US, we average over all the states in the US. As homogenous the US is, different states have different economies, different laws, in some cases, some slight but important cultural differences. Is it really fair to say have the US compete on terms of "competitiveness" or in othe…

I was making this point a few weeks ago and after looking into it more, I still think it's a valuable point to raise, but the truth is more nuanced than I expected. States in the US vary in nominal GSP per capita by only 2x — from Mississippi at $35K to Delaware at $70K. In the EU, it ranges from Bulgaria at €6K to Ireland at €55K. (This excludes DC and Luxembourg, which are outliers in many ways.) In fact, even Miss…

> Mississippi's GDP per capita being similar to that of France, Italy or Spain

And that's why GDP per capita is so useless.

You have a few multi billionaires running your country, and you have tens of millions of people in abject poverty, tens of millions with no health insurance, etc.

Don't look at GDP per capita, it tells you noting about life for the average person.

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#82

Post by uola » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:27 PM UTC

HSO wrote: post #9

jahnu wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the cost of living proportional to competitiveness? Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example. I'd love to know what the incentives are for them.

Well, in Google's case, there's ETH Zurich. Just today, I saw in the newspaper (WSJ university rankings[1]) that ETH was rated top of the pops globally in computer science. (On a related note, I remember vaguely that Disney built a research lab here in Zurich just because of one professor and his team.[2]) Also, in the good old times (= before the rise of right-wing populism and the referendum) Google could attract g…

While I can't find a source at the moment, the story I heard is that some early Google hire had ties to ETH. It's also that Google is in many ways not structure like an engineering company. Being closely connected to a school fits their management methodology quite well.

> I think in the grand scheme of things, Zurich/Switzerland has a lot to offer.

Actually no and this is the problem. If you can either stand being an expat or manage to conform to a fairly inflexible Swiss life style then it has a lot to offer.

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#83

Post by jsnell » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:29 PM UTC

ucaetano wrote: post #32

jsnell wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly irrelevant. I would be surprised if more than 10% of the Zurich-based Google engineers are Swiss or products of the Swiss education system.

Not at all. Proximity to those universities helps create a high-tech cluster, just as Ames, Stanford and Berkeley created the SF Bay Area's high-tech cluster.

I'm not sure there is any kind of exceptional software engineering cluster in Zurich compared to other major European cities.

But even if there were, it wouldn't matter to Google. There are no major network effects or cross-pollination with the ecosystem. Practically everyone who goes to work at that office is relocating from elsewhere. And if people leave, it's rarely to work at some other company in Zurich, but usually to move to another country.

I'm not saying that ETHZ and EPFL aren't great universities. I just don't see any reason to believe they are a major factor in this particular case, directly or indirectly.

(Just to give an idea of where my comments are coming from, I worked at Google Zurich for 4 years, and then another 4 doing a Zurich-based startup).

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#84

Post by tibbe » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:30 PM UTC

HSO wrote: post #9

jahnu wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the cost of living proportional to competitiveness? Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example. I'd love to know what the incentives are for them.

Well, in Google's case, there's ETH Zurich. Just today, I saw in the newspaper (WSJ university rankings[1]) that ETH was rated top of the pops globally in computer science. (On a related note, I remember vaguely that Disney built a research lab here in Zurich just because of one professor and his team.[2]) Also, in the good old times (= before the rise of right-wing populism and the referendum) Google could attract g…

Glassdoor salaries for Google Switzerland: https://www.glassdoor.com.au/Salary/Google-Zurich-Salaries-E...

The average base salary seems to be CHF 136,344 (USD 140,000) per year.

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#85

Post by angry-hacker » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:35 PM UTC

duaneb wrote: post #52

kukx wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The states in the US may vary, but so do regions in Spain and other countries. And the differences are often way bigger than between any pair of states. It would be more unfair to compare separate US states with European countries. While US states share a common fate, the same can't be said about say Germany and Greece even though they are both in the EU.

> The states in the US may vary, but so do regions in Spain and other countries. From whose perspective? A us state, Spain, or a third party?

Probably he referred to Spain's situation where several regions want independence and they also happen to be wealthiest - Basque country and Catalunya. They have their own culture and own language. That happens inside (!!! ) a country in Europe .

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#86

Post by jacalata » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:39 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #47

Swizec wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that regard, is it really fair that the US has a single Olympics team? Or a single world-level anything team?

If anything, the fact that the US has a lot of advantages for athletes (high incomes, nice facilities, etc.) means that grouping all those athletes together for the Olympics probably disadvantages individual American athletes, because there's more competition for Olympic qualification. If each US state competed separately in the Olympics, how many more medals do you suppose that would all have received in swimming, t…

Interesting question! This article says how many medals were won in Rio by people born in each state - http://www.wxyz.com/news/national/rio-olympics-medal-count-b.... It doesn't make a lot of sense to count how many medals were won by people living in each state since the facilities for some sports are focused in a single state. Way beyond me to figure out who didn't make the Olympics, whether they would have medalled, and what states they are from :)

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#87

Post by clock_tower » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:40 PM UTC

heydenberk wrote: post #57

noobermin wrote: post #5

I always feel like it is unfair how we place different European nations in same category as the US in these rankings or whatever, and for the US, we average over all the states in the US. As homogenous the US is, different states have different economies, different laws, in some cases, some slight but important cultural differences. Is it really fair to say have the US compete on terms of "competitiveness" or in othe…

I was making this point a few weeks ago and after looking into it more, I still think it's a valuable point to raise, but the truth is more nuanced than I expected. States in the US vary in nominal GSP per capita by only 2x — from Mississippi at $35K to Delaware at $70K. In the EU, it ranges from Bulgaria at €6K to Ireland at €55K. (This excludes DC and Luxembourg, which are outliers in many ways.) In fact, even Miss…

> Mississippi's GDP per capita being similar to that of France, Italy or Spain is really hard to reconcile with the fact that many of us would love to live in the latter countries and couldn't be paid to move to Mississippi.

Remember good GDP versus bad GDP; a traffic jam increases GDP, but isn't anything particularly worth buying. Accumulated capital (like Notre Dame and the Louvre) doesn't show up in GDP either, and if anything tends to lower it. There's a lot of bad GDP and not much capital accumulation in the US...

Climate also doesn't show up in GDP, now that I think of it, and I think that has a lot to do with the Mississippi situation. Who wants to live in hundred-degree heat with hundred-percent humidity?

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#88

Post by Symbiote » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:42 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #47

Swizec wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that regard, is it really fair that the US has a single Olympics team? Or a single world-level anything team?

If anything, the fact that the US has a lot of advantages for athletes (high incomes, nice facilities, etc.) means that grouping all those athletes together for the Olympics probably disadvantages individual American athletes, because there's more competition for Olympic qualification. If each US state competed separately in the Olympics, how many more medals do you suppose that would all have received in swimming, t…

You could approximate what would happen by summing the medals won by all EU countries, and comparing it with a hypothetical team composed of the top N (3?) EU athletes per event.

You might find http://www.medalspercapita.com/ interesting.

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#89

Post by kowdermeister » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:42 PM UTC

HSO wrote: post #2

It better be, given the cost of living and the salaries here… :-) On a more serious note, although I have no idea how this report was produced, one might note that it was produced by the WEF (a business-friendly Swiss organisation) and that it may well be part of the ongoing political debate in Switzerland on how to implement the referendum result on restricting immigration. I'm not saying it's right, wrong, objectiv…

Is it easy to get a job in Switzerland as developer + EU citizen? Is it likely to change because of immigration regulations?

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#90

Post by protomyth » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 10:43 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #36

brotherjerky wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that mean you should breakout London from the rest of the UK? Frankfurt from Germany?

Maybe, since NY state has 3x the area, 2.5x the population as Switzerland. It seems crazy to lump Mississippi and North Dakota in the same basket as NYC

Interestedly, North Dakota per capita Real Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of 66,507 while New York (not NYC) had 63,929 while Mississippi was dead last (for US States) at 31,894.

NYC itself has got to have a pretty high value given DC is 160,563.

I think its a bit problematic for a very different reason, North Dakota is mostly exporting raw materials (crops and oil) where NYC is services. I'm not sure people really get how the system fits together. To me, the friction points (borders, regulations, shipping, etc.) are the dividers. Not sure how one weighs how much those add to get regions.