Not Just Any Old Geek • Hacker News Board

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#221

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #191

rubber_duck wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean if you were a good dev in the 90s chances are right now you're in some senior architect/management/consultant position. If you're competing for the same jobs as 20 something devs then you've probably screwed up somewhere in your career. I started programming in late 90s but not professionally until 2006 I think, this was probably the late phase of transition to internet as a dominant factor in computing - so I…

> I mean if you were a good dev in the 90s chances are right now you're in some senior architect/management/consultant position. If you're competing for the same jobs as 20 something devs then you've probably screwed up somewhere in your career. Or you just don't like management / like programming?

My last two jobs I got hired for, I said while interviewing that it was my explicit career goal to never become a manager.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#222

Post by cerrelio » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

hanginghyena wrote: post #170

Another old geezer here (43!); had a good run in my twenties and wound up in technical management a few years ago. A couple of tips: - The "hands on" technical skills that launched your career have capped (top salary) and declining value - If you take time to learn / think about how the underlying technology works (vs. just cut / paste / edit code), you can master related new technologies faster than the average bear…

I'm 38, and I now find myself being coaxed into management. I was away from the Valley for about a decade and returned 4 years ago. My career has basically continued from where I left it despite not knowing most of the hot technologies when I returned. I simply learned them, and avoided the fads. Experience definitely helps you sidestep cargo cult development, spinning your wheels and wasting company time.

I've worked with many junior devs over the years and I can see two axes along which engineers develop: those who know/learn actual computer science and software design (the math, software patterns, etc.) and those who don't; those who learn new technologies, and those who don't. If you're in both of the "don't" categories, your career stalls after about 4-5 years.

Learning processes rather than technologies is very valuable, because processes produce things. Technologies are just the building blocks. I've seen too many developers who are one-trick ponies. They build the same systems over and over, only changing what technologies they use. "Sure, I can build you an MVC content management system in PHP!" -> "Sure, I can build you an MVC CMS in Rails!" -> "Sure, I can build you an MVC CMS in Node.js!" Those developers don't age well.

Also, like you mentioned, I highly recommend trying your hand at entrepreneurship. If you have enough process skills, you can eventually handle designing and pushing a product. You might feel uncomfortable moving away from your vim window into the meeting room, but that's where the greater rewards are. And those 20-somethings are going to help you do that.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#223

Post by cunac » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

codeonfire wrote: post #204

rubber_duck wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean if you were a good dev in the 90s chances are right now you're in some senior architect/management/consultant position. If you're competing for the same jobs as 20 something devs then you've probably screwed up somewhere in your career. I started programming in late 90s but not professionally until 2006 I think, this was probably the late phase of transition to internet as a dominant factor in computing - so I…

Typical ageist bullshit. Your argument is if someone is good at something then they are probably not doing it anymore. Newsflash, you were moved out of dev because you have some issue. Most people avoid "architects" which is code for cranky bastard who can't be fired but is likely breaking lots of stuff in the codebase and generally making things bad for the devs of all ages.

I guess latest code review didn't go well ?

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#224

Post by ksenzee » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

rubber_duck wrote: post #92

czep wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were having cardiac surgery, would you prefer your surgeon to be a year out of med school having done the operation oh 3 or 4 times, or the proverbial graybeard who has done it a thousand times? If you were wrongly convicted and awaiting a death sentence, would you pick a 22 year old attorney fresh from law school to defend you? If you have a field full of tomatoes that needs picking, do you save a few dollars…

Umm the more comparable parable would be "or the proverbial graybeard who has done ~~it~~ kidney surgery a thousand times" The stuff you did in software 20 years ago has absolutely nothing to do with the stuff that's being done today. Like holly shit most people weren't even using source control back, unit testing and automated testing in general was SciFi, it was done by QA departments if you were big enough to do i…

I've only been in the industry 13 years, and I'm not using a single tool today that I used back then, but I'm still using the lessons I learned:

How much time should my team spend on testing vs. code review vs. building new features?

How risky is this feature, and how much QA does it need?

Which of the brand-new engineers on my team needs a careful eye on their code so they don't blow everything up?

When is it time to say screw it, we have to ship?

Which new hip framework is likely to have staying power, because of the people and the commitment behind it?

How do I convince open-source maintainer X to accept my new feature, so I'm not maintaining patches into eternity?

Those are the important questions I deal with every day. I couldn't answer them as well 10 years ago, and I bet I can answer them better 10 years from now.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#225

Post by cerrelio » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

osullivj wrote: post #40

jmspring wrote: post #4

I got invited to a YC event - meet companies, they pitched - a recruiting event. More than a few pulled the "we work hard, play hard, are a family" card. If you have friends/family, avoid such. Cultural fit is bull shit. It's about getting people to work more at a fixed rate. I've been there, done that, ran away to better things. As someone expected to write code - make sure "operations" isn't a hidden requirement -…

Claiming "we are a family" in a business environment is always a reg flag for me. Team is a much better metaphor. Sports teams back each other up, but ultimately underperformers get dropped. You don't get fired from a family, you don't stop being a brother, sister, father or mother.

My view on this is that the people I work with are colleagues and not family. I don't consider coworkers friends. I'm friendly with them, but not friends. We're at work to mutually put money in each other's pockets, not to form deep personal bonds. This view takes some finesse to develop; it's a fine line to walk, but I've found it works for me

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#226

Post by johnwheeler » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:23 PM UTC

mark_l_watson wrote: post #87

As a programmer in my 60s, my (rather obvious) advice is to save and invest throughout your career so you have financial flexibility as you get older. I still very much enjoy working but when I have unbooked time I really enjoy that also. It also helps to have great hobbies. I enjoy writing (I am finishing up a Haskell book, and I have a partially written book on cognitive science that will get finished some day), I…

This is the type of humility experience buys you and companies should be benefiting from. Beautiful piece.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#227

Post by pmoriarty » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:29 PM UTC

zackmorris wrote: post #156

I'm pushing 40 and am starting to measure my productivity by how much code I remove in a day, not how much I write. Is anyone else feeling that way? That much of what we do is a waste of time, that perhaps software is evolving in wrong directions due to issues like income inequality (wealth and expertise being at opposite ends of the spectrum) or worse is better? Sometimes I stare at the ceiling realizing that the en…

"it all starts to look more like the wheelings and dealings of Mad Men than computer science"

Yeah, in many ways the tech field (and corporations/startups in general) are bad just parodies of themselves. But the dog and pony show still gets funding, so there are still jobs out there, so I guess it's not all bad. But after a while it does get a little hard to get all starry-eyed about some new web framework or instant messaging app.

There are still some companies that do interesting things, (depending on what you're in to) but you might have to look beyond the typical e-commerce startup. Things like robotics, artificial intelligence, new medical technology, etc. Things that actually could make the world better (though of course technology is amoral, and could always be abused to make the world worse).

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#228

Post by employee8000 » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:33 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #30

daemonk wrote: post #15

I am getting to old geek status myself. From a more cynical perspective, I am not sure if we can compete with early twenty-somethings who are unjaded and buy into the silicon valley mystique. They are willing to work 12 hour days and still do the faux-japanese salarymen afterwork socializing that supposedly builds "culture". Older geeks don't buy into this ping-pong table propaganda. Tech companies probably won't be…

I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.

I hate smug answers like this. I'm old and the young people I work with at Uber are amazing and get tons of things done. Just because you're old doesn't mean you know any better or just because they are young, it doesn't mean they can't get shit done.

Pretending that just because you're old you hold some magical advantage doesn't fly. You need to prove yourself every day because this is the industry we are in.

And the reasons why young people are more desirable is obvious. They generally have more energy, less time constraints and aren't afraid of change. I work very hard to keep myself current. But it's hard.

I have 5 side projects gathering dust at home because after work, commute and kids, I'm exhausted. It's easy to keep up when your only commitments are work and relationship.

So it's fairly obvious why younger people are more desirable. As long as companies give us old guys a chance I don't mind. I'm smart and will fight for my opportunities. I don't think I'm entitled to anything. My boss is almost 20 years younger than me but he's smart and cool. At some point this may end but that's just reality. No one hires 60 year old coal miners either when there are 20 year olds available.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#229

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:34 PM UTC

atoko wrote: post #199

jimbokun wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"nobody these days rolls their own SQRT function to squeeze out a few extra CPU cycles" Um, nobody did this 20 years ago, either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root Not exactly SQRT, but.

Also an incredibly specialized case and in those kinds of extremely performance-intensive scenarios it might still make sense.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#230

Post by tobltobs » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:35 PM UTC

rubber_duck wrote: post #177

santaclaus wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did you use SCM, automated testing and design patterns 20 years ago ? If yes do you think this was the norm in the industry ? Design patterns are way older than 20 years... hell, the design pattern bible was published 22 years ago, which means design patterns were in wide circulation well before I could tie shoes. According to wikipedia CVS has been around for 26 years.

Again - I'm not saying these things didn't exist - I'm saying they weren't the norm in the industry.

Can I ask how old you are? And if you are below 25, which I think you are, judging by your comments, then how do you know?