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Not Just Any Old Geek

blog.oldgeekjobs.com

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Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#41

Post by kbart »

Jean-Philipe wrote: post #16

I didn't feel this kind of bias here in Berlin. When founding FitAnalytics.com, we were three young students fresh from university, but all of us highly appreciated more senior programmers (40+) joining the team. Even if their language didn't fit our stack (C++ for a JS position), my experience was extremely positive, feeling that some programmers just get better with age, no matter the language du jour. Regarding pa…

I think this young programmers cult is more US centric problem. Or should I say SV centric problem. I didn't notice such widespread age discrimination in Europe. I'm not that old yet (30), but I've worked with many older programmer/engineers (40+) in several companies and most of them were highly respected, well-paid and got tons of other job offers. Sure, if you are stuck in eighties programming with Assembler only and dismiss C as high level language, don't blame anybody but yourself..

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#42

Post by plinkplonk »

jkot wrote: post #7

> I’ve published a dozen articles ... build software with thousands of paying customers. ... work on open source Python. ... read almost 40 business books, and I live and breathe HackerNews. Why not start your own business or become CTO? Why work for someone less experienced?

I don't think you deserve the downvotes, it seemed like a genuine question.

Becoming CTO (or in general, moving into management) is not for everyone. That said, in practical terms it behooves the early/mid thirties developer to have some kind of plan to mitigate age discrimination. Consulting is a good half way point.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#43

Post by cholantesh »

superJimmy64 wrote: post #39

(Not that it really matters, but I'm 27...) A few things came to me after reading the post: Firstly, how this situation shared by the OP and many others is pure insanity. That the very people who grew up with this technology during the baby years are now struggling to have a place now that it really has taken off. Secondly, for those in their mid-30's and onward, to realize how immensely skilled they likely are at wr…

>(still must admit that 37 doesn't feel old to me)

Same; I find it a bit terrifying that 35+ is considered 'old' in our industry...

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#44

Post by superJimmy64 »

daemonk wrote: post #29
drvdevd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been into programming most of my life, but actually didn't get started professionally until my mid-to-late 20s. This gave me a unique view of said propaganda. It certainly lives everywhere including outside SV. I've been able to quickly recognize it being applied and thus desire other, better forms of compensation. I think this is a skill we should strive to teach younger programmers, because if properly applied…

Yeah definitely. I actually work in academia (I guess I wasn't very qualified to speak about SV). But it's the same shtick everywhere. Passion has become an euphemism for soft corporate brain-washing. I am reminded of this blog article by an ad executive before his death where he raised similar points about his industry: http://www.lindsredding.com/2012/03/11/a-overdue-lesson-in-p...

>(You don’t have to drive creative folk like most workers. They drive themselves. Just wind ’em up and let ’em go.)

Great link: Very, VERY insightful.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#45

Post by uola »

jwr wrote: post #30
daemonk wrote: post #15

I am getting to old geek status myself. From a more cynical perspective, I am not sure if we can compete with early twenty-somethings who are unjaded and buy into the silicon valley mystique. They are willing to work 12 hour days and still do the faux-japanese salarymen afterwork socializing that supposedly builds "culture". Older geeks don't buy into this ping-pong table propaganda. Tech companies probably won't be…

I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.

Honestly, even as I'm getting older, this isn't at all obvious to me. Someone with five years solid experience with web development might very well be far more effective than someone with twenty years experience of working in corners of large companies with various technologies, especially when you consider the expected salary.

I think it good that people are talking about these things, but sometime it seem like people think it's a big conspiracy, rather than a factor of how the ecosystem and market looks.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#46

Post by js8 »

onion2k wrote: post #24
mrschwabe wrote: post #8

If Jaromir Jagr, at 44 years of age, can play at the highest level of professional hockey in the world, leading his young team in points (and 2nd in goals) last season [1] just imagine what a programmer can do with the same level of focus and determination at that age and beyond. [1] https://www.nhl.com/panthers/stats/regular-season/skaters/p

Isn't the main argument against employing older developers that they won't have that level of focus and determination? Pointing to an statistical anomaly and suggesting that older people can be that focused is easily countered with an argument that, while that's true, it's far more likely that a younger person will have the traits you're looking for, so you should employ them instead. A rare example of a hyper-focuse…

Perhaps it's anecdotal too but I work in mainframes (myself being 38) with both younger and older colleagues and the ones that are older seem to be far more focused and determined (perhaps "work ethic" is the most apt word for it) than the younger ones. I can even feel it myself looking back.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#47

Post by Macuyiko »

buro9 wrote: post #33
Macuyiko wrote: post #31

Nice idea, but the site itself is clearly copied from https://weworkremotely.com/jobs/new -- even down to the segment headers. The only notable change is setting the font family to monospaced...

They look nothing alike. The HTML structure is different The CSS is different. What limited JS exists is different. The layout of each list item is different. The only similarity, is that it is a list of jobs grouped by location and date. But that is a pretty obvious common pattern for a job site and hardly represents plagiarism.

Check the new post page I actually linked to! All text is almost a verbatim copy. I'm not accusing of plagiarism (I didn't mention the word), but just notice the similarities, even down to "Example: Send a resume to jane@company.com" and the category listing.

Here, see them side by side: http://imgur.com/a/9Rclx

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#48

Post by js8 »

drvdevd wrote: post #27
daemonk wrote: post #15

I am getting to old geek status myself. From a more cynical perspective, I am not sure if we can compete with early twenty-somethings who are unjaded and buy into the silicon valley mystique. They are willing to work 12 hour days and still do the faux-japanese salarymen afterwork socializing that supposedly builds "culture". Older geeks don't buy into this ping-pong table propaganda. Tech companies probably won't be…

I've been into programming most of my life, but actually didn't get started professionally until my mid-to-late 20s. This gave me a unique view of said propaganda. It certainly lives everywhere including outside SV. I've been able to quickly recognize it being applied and thus desire other, better forms of compensation. I think this is a skill we should strive to teach younger programmers, because if properly applied…

> Your time is valuable no matter how old you are

I disagree, but maybe that would explain it, your time is actually more valuable (for you) as you grow older.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#49

Post by jkot »

plinkplonk wrote: post #42
jkot wrote: post #7

> I’ve published a dozen articles ... build software with thousands of paying customers. ... work on open source Python. ... read almost 40 business books, and I live and breathe HackerNews. Why not start your own business or become CTO? Why work for someone less experienced?

I don't think you deserve the downvotes, it seemed like a genuine question. Becoming CTO (or in general, moving into management) is not for everyone. That said, in practical terms it behooves the early/mid thirties developer to have some kind of plan to mitigate age discrimination. Consulting is a good half way point.

> two early twenty year olds.... Even though their job advertisement called for the passionate, opinionated, and entrepreneurial-type, they really wanted someone who could become that under them. Both were solid, but according to LinkedIn, neither had much experience outside college.

I just dont understand why someone with so much experience would apply for entry level position, under some college greenhorns.

Re: Not Just Any Old Geek

#50

Post by andrewchambers »

jwr wrote: post #30
daemonk wrote: post #15

I am getting to old geek status myself. From a more cynical perspective, I am not sure if we can compete with early twenty-somethings who are unjaded and buy into the silicon valley mystique. They are willing to work 12 hour days and still do the faux-japanese salarymen afterwork socializing that supposedly builds "culture". Older geeks don't buy into this ping-pong table propaganda. Tech companies probably won't be…

I wouldn't worry. We can actually Get Stuff Done, which at the end of the day is what really counts. Inexperienced young programmers working 2x the hours do not necessarily produce Output That Works (I know, I've been one myself). Sure, not every company will realize that, but then again, you don't necessarily want to work for every ping-pong table company, either. Cultural fit and all that.

I've seen plenty of old developers who fancy themselves experienced who are not efficient too.
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