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Stali: A new static Linux distribution

sta.li

51–60 of 233 posts

Re: Stali: A new static Linux distribution

#51
post #3

I still don't understand why systemd sucks

That's a loaded question, and I'm only qualified to answer from my perspective and experience. My biggest gripe with it has always been that it is alpha-quality software, even today, that has a central role in an otherwise mature OS ecosystem. It has been widely adopted (some would say forced or tricked into adoption by a few distros) and therefore all the major Linux distributions are now running at an alpha level w…

I'm an Ubuntu LTS user. Compared to Upstart in 14.04, Systemd is an improvement. ;)

Re: Stali: A new static Linux distribution

#52
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sta tic li nux isn't really a reaction to systemd. What it is a reaction to is exemplified both by what the blurb on its WWW spends most of its time on, and indeed by its very name: dynamic linking. "Executing statically linked executables is much faster" ... "Statically linked executables are portable" ... "Statically linked executables use less disk space" ... "Statically linked executables consume less memory" --…

I refuse to believe that disk space is less as it can leverage other libraries in the deps list to load at run time and other can use it too. For static executable the same dependent library will have to linked to all binaries. Maintenance is a pain in the neck.

> I refuse to believe that disk space is less as it can leverage other libraries in the deps list to load at run time and other can use it too.

If I remember correctly, the argument goes someting like this: modern compilers, i.e. something as recent as the Plan 9 toolchain or a GCC version from this millenium, usually compile in only the necessary code with static linking, and not whole libraries. With dynamic linking, you always have to load the whole library into memory, which supposedly pays off only with heavily used libraries such as libc (e.g. think about how many libraries used by Firefox/Chromium are used by other programs).

So the hope is (combined with a general strive for small programs), since text pages are shared between processes and statically linked programs only include the absolute necessary code you end up with a smaller memory footprint. (I'm not sure whether you save disk space, but I don't think that would be a problem nowadays. Heck, look at go binaries.)

And I guess, the linker could do more whole-program-optimization on a statically linked program, since all the coude is available.

> For static executable the same dependent library will have to linked to all binaries. Maintenance is a pain in the neck.

Generally you would want to have a proper build system. In case of StaLi, they have one global git repository (/.git). An update is simply "git pull && make install".

I don't know if this process is slower or faster than binary updates, but if they strive for small programs/binaries, then I guess it doesn't matter as much.

Source-based distributions, such as Gentoo, have the advantage that you don't have to wait for someone to publish an upgraded binary, you can compile it yourself, instead. This might give you a slight edge for security vulnerabilities.

Re: Stali: A new static Linux distribution

#53
post #47
post #24

Shocked that it takes a fringe project to be promoting static linking and cleaning up the filesystem. Would love to hear the linux grandfathers chime in...

Static linking is a virtue now? I don't understand the advantages.

Google Go and Rust promote it. However, deploying web services is different than Linux distro.

Re: Stali: A new static Linux distribution

#54
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a loaded question, and I'm only qualified to answer from my perspective and experience. My biggest gripe with it has always been that it is alpha-quality software, even today, that has a central role in an otherwise mature OS ecosystem. It has been widely adopted (some would say forced or tricked into adoption by a few distros) and therefore all the major Linux distributions are now running at an alpha level w…

I'm an Ubuntu LTS user. Compared to Upstart in 14.04, Systemd is an improvement. ;)

Upstart solves the same sysv-init problems that was the motivation for systemd.

And systemd should be an improvement - it started after upstart, and hit production well after upstart :)

Re: Stali: A new static Linux distribution

#55
post #47
post #24

Shocked that it takes a fringe project to be promoting static linking and cleaning up the filesystem. Would love to hear the linux grandfathers chime in...

Static linking is a virtue now? I don't understand the advantages.

https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/26555760682

Re: Stali: A new static Linux distribution

#56
post #5

( Also discussed previously at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8819085 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7261559 ) Interesting points: * http://sta.li/filesystem -- Everything not obviously covered by a fairly simplified hierarchy is put into /sucks , without fixing the problem of /etc still being a grab-bag miscellany. * http://sta.li/filesystem -- /dev being for devices is a "Linux assumption". * http:/…

> Installation uses HTTP to fetch a boot volume image.

This is a problem with all of the suckless software and it, well, sucks.

Re: Stali: A new static Linux distribution

#58
post #3

I still don't understand why systemd sucks

That's a loaded question, and I'm only qualified to answer from my perspective and experience. My biggest gripe with it has always been that it is alpha-quality software, even today, that has a central role in an otherwise mature OS ecosystem. It has been widely adopted (some would say forced or tricked into adoption by a few distros) and therefore all the major Linux distributions are now running at an alpha level w…

Ubuntu 16.04 is not meant for lightweight machines - for example, the Unity desktop assumes you have 3D acceleration (which sucks for using in a VM). It's not systemd that makes your atom netbook slow (well, assuming you're using Unity...)

Re: systemd itself, I could care less about the bells and whistles, but every time I go back to fiddle with a sysv init script, I yearn for either of upstart or systemd...

Re: Stali: A new static Linux distribution

#59
post #3

I still don't understand why systemd sucks

That's a loaded question, and I'm only qualified to answer from my perspective and experience. My biggest gripe with it has always been that it is alpha-quality software, even today, that has a central role in an otherwise mature OS ecosystem. It has been widely adopted (some would say forced or tricked into adoption by a few distros) and therefore all the major Linux distributions are now running at an alpha level w…

The irony of the eroding the UNIX philosophy from Linux is that most real UNIX systems, meaning AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, NeXTSTep (cough macOS), Tru64,... do have something similar to systemd.

Sometimes shouting "UNIX philosophy" in GNU/Linux forums reminds me of emigrants that keep traditions of their home countries alive that are long out of fashion back home.

Re: Stali: A new static Linux distribution

#60

I'm confused about some claims / justifications. For example: > A user can easily run dynamic library code using LD_PRELOAD in conjunction with some trivial program like ping. No... Not sure if it ever worked, but it's definitely not possible for many years now. Also the link to the ASLR effectiveness paper was valid in 2004. That means they're still testing 32bit systems and effectively say scanning 64bit systems th…

Yeah, that's outdated, but there have been a few related bugs in the dynamic linker not that long ago, like LD_AUDIT: http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2010/Oct/344
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