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UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

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Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#411
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not for you to cross-examine me, though. You're right. And in this case, I wasn't. I responded to someone who said you were fired with an official statement that contradicted it. You joined into the discussion with, "you don't know and I don't have to tell you." Which is fine! In that case, I will continue to correct anyone who says you were fired by pointing to the only official statement on the matter that s…

Word count is rising :-/. I will try to make it go down. > You joined into the discussion with, "you don't know and I don't have to tell you." No (and there you go again -- your paraphrase is incomplete and downright inaccurate). I commented ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12587142 ) to link back to our previous HN exchange, because your comment up above ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12578451 ) made c…

> One example: "He could have stayed if he wanted to." You don't know that and can't really know it, so stop saying it.

As I keep saying, the only publicly available evidence is that your resignation was voluntary. Voluntary implies optional. Optional implies you could stay. There's no leap of logic here.

Yes, there could be behind-the-scenes NDAs and private events that meant you couldn't have. But unless you provide any shred of evidence, then I can't go on those.

Imagine this like a court of law. Your vague hints of knowledge I am not privy to would be inadmissable evidence. Because of course it would be.

> (which I refute all the time by saying I resigned)

Well there you go! There's our answer. You weren't fired, you resigned. Right from the man himself :D

> Who asked you to hold anyone in contempt?

Who asked you who could get married and who couldn't?

I have the right to hold any opinion I want about anyone. It's just an opinion; it has no authority. People in this thread are mad at Mozilla, claiming they fired you. If that is true, I want to join them in their anger. But I want evidence first.

> No third or fourth alternative?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse. I can't think of a third or fourth alternative. I'm not the brightest bulb out there, but I like to think I'm reasonably capable of imagining multiple possible scenarios. But I've got nothing here.

> "The protestors had zero control over the Mozilla board."

Come on, now you're just messing with me. Nobody here believes people on the internet shouting at you had the power to force Mozilla's board to act the way they wanted. It's a company, not an elected body. You yourself made that argument about oppression and agency. They may not have liked their options, but nobody held a gun to anyone's head and forced them to fire you. Even if keeping you meant burning the whole company to the ground, they still had full autonomy to make their own choice.

Or are you going to go reductio ad absurdum and tell me that I don't (and can't) know if any protestors held a gun to your board members' heads? :P

The rest ... fair enough. It seems I need to preface everything with "it's my reasonable assumption that ..." when speaking with you ;)

> Just consider your "He could have stayed if he wanted to." Why'd you write that?

If your resignation was voluntary, that implies you could have stayed. If you couldn't, it would thus not be voluntary. Because that is what the word voluntary means. It implies you made a choice. If you were saying you chose to resign instead of being fired, then you didn't make a choice, you were fired. Calling that a voluntary resignation is bullshit.

> I mean what needs did it serve to say something you can't possibly know, as if it were an incontrovertible fact.

Our basic communication breakdown here is that I am treating fact as "what's in the public record"; and you are treating fact as "you were actually there for it." Yours is obviously superior. But you won't share the latter with me, again which is fine! But if you don't do so, then don't blame me for treating the former as fact. It's no different than the way a court of law would treat it. I'm not being unreasonable here. I can't read the tea leaves and divine what really happened, nor can anyone else. That doesn't mean we can't ever talk about it. There are lots of unknowns in the world, and I am following the way reasonable people discuss and interpret those things as best they can.

Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#412
post #178
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "On April 3, 2014 Brendan Eich voluntarily stepped down as CEO of Mozilla." Yeah as voluntarily as those politicians resigning to spend more time with their families really resign to spend more time with their families. It's not fooling anybody else, and I have very hard time believing it's fooling you. He resigned because he was asked to resign. That's how top management firing is done. > He could have stayed if h…

> He resigned because he was asked to resign. Sorry to post a link, but I responded to the same argument already here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12579498 > So if somebody who thinks firing people because they have different political opinion than you is wrong, would arrange to get you fired from your job - you'd be completely ok with that, according to your beliefs? If they were truly my convictions, I wou…

> If they were truly my convictions, I would stand by them and tell the world that I was fired for my beliefs.

That's not the question. The question is - would you think that company that fired you did right by you? If not, then you can understand how people feel Mozilla didn't do right by Eich.

> It would also mean the Mozilla board was truly and utterly incompetent; because this was an extremely predictable result

No it wasn't. A lot of people held view similar to Eich's (including Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama at certain times, btw) and many donated to Prop 8. If you not aware of it, Prop 8 actuall passed. Which means majority of California voters supported it. Not all of them were target of personal destruction hate campaigns. The hatemongers chose Eich to target, but they could choose somebody else out of 7 million people that voted "yes".

> They already knew of Eich's donation.

If they did, that would be highly unusual and irregular to investigate private life of a person. I would certainly be alarmed if my employer would scrutinize my private donations. WTF they are doing asking how I spend my money? But what if they did? Certainly a lot of people donate to a lot of causes, and not every one of them is targeted by hate campaigns.

> And anyone with a functioning brain would have realized that this would become a much bigger issue when he was promoted to CEO.

Nope. Name me organizations that CEO's of Fortune 100 companies donated to, without googling. You can't. Because you don't know. Because nobody knows. Because nobody cares, until it becomes target of a campaign. Now you are posing as if you could have predicted it, you could not.

> We do, however, share common ground that nobody should be fired for their personal beliefs

Yet Eich was. That's the

> Say there were a company run by a neo-nazi grandmaster wizard of the KKK

But there wasn't. There was a US Senator who was in the KKK (Robert Byrd) but most his comrades seem to be completely fine with it. Eich wasn't in the KKK and did not intend to commit anything. Why engage in ludicrous assumptions that we all know are false?

> The critics who called for his job were wrong to do so.

And yet they got what they wanted. And Mozilla aided and abetted.

> Prove it.

The proof is in the pudding. Mozilla never did anything to support Eich, it were Mozilla employees who initiated the personal destruction campaign, board was on the record offering him "another role" but never offered to stand up for him, and so on. Of course, I was not a fly on the wall when the talk between Eich and board members happened, so I can't give you the money quote. But I see the gist of the situation to be pretty clear and so do many others.

Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#413
post #208

Removing Google's binary blobs is mitigating one issue, but replacing it with an entire binary blog from an anonymous github user might be introducing new ones. On that note - can you tell us more about the project? ie. if you plan on keeping this updated long terms (i've watched a lot of promising chromium forks fade after an initial big splash), what your plans are, if you'll you accept contributions, how the binar…

> a lighter browser (without canvas, webgl, webrtc etc.) Please do not do this. Webgl and Webrtc are fundamental technologies needed to efficiently do basic activities like process an image or send sound data to another user. I am all for a "lighter" browser, by removing UI, removing dev tools, etc. Get rid of the stuff that's not required to make a web page work well. But WebGL and WebRTC are cornerstone technologie…

> I realize these technologies are not currently doing anything for you. I sympathize. But we need them in browsers now so that we can use them in 10 years.

6 years ago many people didn't even knew what web browsers were (What is a Browser? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ)

Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#414
post #162
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eich resigned because his political views made it difficult for him to continue doing his job. This is a very disingenuous way of describing it. More proper way to describe it would be that a group of political activists put pressure on Mozilla to fire Eich because of his political views, for political reasons, and Mozilla as organization caved. There was no instance of Eich's views ever influencing anything on his…

"There was no instance of Eich's views ever influencing anything on his job, and no single instance or evidence of any problem with his job." I don't know if that's true. I don't know how many gay folks work for Mozilla, but I'm 100% it's a non-zero number. They might have had a real problem with his donating to Prop 8. I couldn't say whether they did, being neither gay nor a mozilla employee, but I could imagine it…

> They might have had a real problem with his donating to Prop 8.

So what? I might have a problem with my boss' watch or suit or the shows he likes or the newspapers she reads. Who cares? I'm not marrying him/her, I'm working with him/her. It's irrelevant for the work.

There's no single piece of evidence Eich did in any way impede, discriminate against, was hostile to or in any other way hurt any gay - or straight, for that matter - employee, while working for Mozilla. If there were a shred of evidence, it would be unearthed and paraded by now. It wasn't. Conclusion is it doesn't exist. That's what I am talking about "no single instance". I don't claim nobody ever disagreed with him on anything, because a) that's impossible and b) nobody cares, disagreement is completely normal.

> but I could imagine it might make them uncomfortable,

The idea that everybody should behave in a way that makes absolutely everybody else comfortable and never do anything that could cause slightest discomfort to anybody is one of the most stupid ideas that ever come out of American college campuses. Fortunately, even its proponents don't actually believe in it - they are completely fine causing their opponents maximum discomfort. It's only their own comfort that they aim to protect. Which is fine - but I see no reason why their comfort is more important than everybody else.

Of course, some people - including ones working for Mozilla - may hate Eich's views. So what? If you have views, somebody would eventually hate them. And some would love them. And most wouldn't care.

> Mozilla didn't fire him

Technically, no. Effectively, yes. There are more ways to fire a person than yell "You're FIRED!!!!" to his face. This "his own volition" is a pile of bull, just like saying "oh, your honor, this guy handed his wallet to me on his own volition, and the gun in my hand has really nothing to do with the case, let's forget about it. The guy even said "please take my wallet and let me go!" which I obliged to do. So I don't see what all the fuss is about, it's clearly a voluntary transaction."

> but usually when I boycott something it's for real stuff, not stuff I just made up in my head.

I remain grateful to you for this short, but instructive story about your life. It was very educational, truly a people interest story.

Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#415
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I could imagine it might make them (gay employees) uncomfortable, Nobody likes being uncomfortable, perhaps having gay employees made Eich uncomfortable too. But I don't remember hearing about him forcing anyone out of the company or discriminating against anyone under any circumstance. To prevent his employees from feeling uncomfortable should the government allow Eich to stop hiring gay employees?

> To prevent his employees from feeling uncomfortable should the government allow Eich to stop hiring gay employees? Oh god, don't give the US Supreme Court any ideas >_> They already think corporations are people with religious rights, and that discrimination is a thing of the past. This wouldn't be much of a stretch for them at this point. ( You can already refuse to hire gay people (as well as outright fire them)…

> They already think corporations are people with religious rights

No they don't. They think people, when organizing into corporations, do not lose their rights just because they did something together.

Example: you have freedom of speech, and US Constitution and US laws recognize that.

You can print a newspaper and freedom of speech protects you. Now, printing a newspaper is hard. So you ask a bunch of people to help you, and you call these people together "The New York Times Corporation". Is printing the newspaper together still covered as your free speech?

The US Supreme Court thinks yes, it is. I think they are completely correct. To think otherwise would be to say people have free speech right, but only to the point where it actually matters - where they can speak so powerfully and loudly that the government and other people in power have to listen.

In our modern world it is virtually impossible to achieve it without organizing - and so by pretending that after organizing people lose their rights that they had before would be to rob the First Amendment of its meaning and turn it into a sham, when you can only speak freely when it does not matter.

Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#416
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Word count is rising :-/. I will try to make it go down. > You joined into the discussion with, "you don't know and I don't have to tell you." No (and there you go again -- your paraphrase is incomplete and downright inaccurate). I commented ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12587142 ) to link back to our previous HN exchange, because your comment up above ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12578451 ) made c…

> One example: "He could have stayed if he wanted to." You don't know that and can't really know it, so stop saying it. As I keep saying, the only publicly available evidence is that your resignation was voluntary. Voluntary implies optional. Optional implies you could stay. There's no leap of logic here. Yes, there could be behind-the-scenes NDAs and private events that meant you couldn't have. But unless you provid…

You are going in circles. I'm cutting it off right here:

> the only publicly available evidence is that your resignation was voluntary. Voluntary implies optional. Optional implies you could stay. There's no leap of logic here.

You're wrong: "voluntary" does not imply "optional" in any scenario where the possible outcomes are not mutually exclusive and exhaustive. It's as simple as that. The old saw about the sergeant calling for volunteers and saying if you don't put your hand up, then you'll be "volunteered", comes to mind.

> Well there you go! There's our answer. You weren't fired, you resigned. Right from the man himself :D

I suggest you write less and read more. I've said I resigned since I in fact did resign on 3 April 2014, on my blog, in a statement to Mozilla employees, and on HN every N months, including on this very HN page today. If you didn't read any of those statements, then you simply weren't paying attention. If you read and ignored, bad on you. Either way, you've used up my patience, and probably many others'.

Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#417
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He resigned of his own volition..." Yeah, I'm sure he just up and decided to resign with zero pressure from political insiders and the flash mob causing outrage. That's probably what happened.

I for one commend Eich, for putting on his big boy pants and owning the consequences of his actions. He held an unpopular view, acted on it, and people weren't happy with him. Far better to step down and let the organization right itself, than to try and hold onto his position and his retrograde views simultaneously. Shows real class.

There was nothing in Mozilla that needed to be "righted" with respect to Eich, except, as it turned out, cowardice and spinelessness. Of course, working for organization that throws you under the bus on the first sigh somebody on twitter is cross with you is no picnic either, so maybe Eich is better of for this.

Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#418
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He resigned of his own volition..." Yeah, I'm sure he just up and decided to resign with zero pressure from political insiders and the flash mob causing outrage. That's probably what happened.

The only way this will work is if you keep pretending he had no say in the matter. He resigned. Get over it.

By "say" you mean that if he wanted, he could've stayed and Mozilla as an organization would support him and he wouldn't have any trouble? Yeah right.

Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#419
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One example: "He could have stayed if he wanted to." You don't know that and can't really know it, so stop saying it. As I keep saying, the only publicly available evidence is that your resignation was voluntary. Voluntary implies optional. Optional implies you could stay. There's no leap of logic here. Yes, there could be behind-the-scenes NDAs and private events that meant you couldn't have. But unless you provid…

You are going in circles. I'm cutting it off right here: > the only publicly available evidence is that your resignation was voluntary. Voluntary implies optional. Optional implies you could stay. There's no leap of logic here. You're wrong: "voluntary" does not imply "optional" in any scenario where the possible outcomes are not mutually exclusive and exhaustive. It's as simple as that. The old saw about the sergean…

Fair enough, we'll end it at this, then.

My sincere thanks for your patience. I'm sorry we couldn't reach an understanding, but I do appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me today.

It's truly not my intention to misrepresent what happened nor your own words. But I honestly can't form a definitive answer based on what you've been willing to say. Nor do I feel this is an issue that can just be ignored.

Several of your points did reach me: I will try to take your advice and be more explicit in future replies on this topic that I make, and I'll certainly link to your own comments here if I do. But I'm really hoping this situation will stop coming up in every other Mozilla story on HN, so that I won't have to.

Re: UnGoogled Chromium: Chromium with enhanced privacy, control and transparency

#420
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Word count is rising :-/. I will try to make it go down. > You joined into the discussion with, "you don't know and I don't have to tell you." No (and there you go again -- your paraphrase is incomplete and downright inaccurate). I commented ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12587142 ) to link back to our previous HN exchange, because your comment up above ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12578451 ) made c…

> One example: "He could have stayed if he wanted to." You don't know that and can't really know it, so stop saying it. As I keep saying, the only publicly available evidence is that your resignation was voluntary. Voluntary implies optional. Optional implies you could stay. There's no leap of logic here. Yes, there could be behind-the-scenes NDAs and private events that meant you couldn't have. But unless you provid…

> but nobody held a gun to anyone's head

This is not what you asked, though. You asked if something were voluntary (and assumed optional meaning disjoint outcomes for the given action). You used "had zero control". Again, the range of possibilities is bigger than "zero control" vs. "gun to head".

Enough with the false dilemmas, already!

If you are serious about talking 1:1, DM me on Twitter.

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