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Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

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Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#91

Post by copperx »

aabajian wrote: post #58
rationalthug wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that Python was not only built to appeal to "non-devs" as well ad devs but, does, in fact, enjoy some of its strongest support from them- scientists, engineers, statisticians, etc., who do not consider themselves to be good developers. And, man, they can develop some crappy code/systems in Python too. I like Python too (as well as node,) but your characterization of node is over-broad and, imo, inaccur…

Python is outstanding for nearly every purpose I've thrown at it, and I was a strong Java developer. Now if anyone asks me if they should learn R/Matlab/Java/C, I say "Sure, but learn Python first."

Which Python? We have two of them now.

Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#92

Post by [deleted] »

SwellJoe wrote: post #60
mhuffman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do realize that Python was not only built to appeal to "non-devs" ... as an alternative to C++ and Perl. And in that respect, it is a snap to pick up. It is pretty easy, not as easy as, say, Javascript, but still easy to pick up, I agree. Node.js is cancer. We all use it, because of the momentum it has with designers instantly being able to declare themselves "full-stack devs", but make no mistake -- Node.js an…

"as an alternative to C++ and Perl" Do you have a citation for that? My understanding of the timeline and Guido's writings on the subject make it seem very unlikely that C++ or Perl had any significant impact on the decision to create Python or the design of Python. Python would very likely still exist in a world without C++ or Perl, as far as I can tell. Python isn't even in the same lineage as either of those langu…

[deleted]

Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#93

Post by gramstrong »

mhuffman wrote: post #45
rationalthug wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that Python was not only built to appeal to "non-devs" as well ad devs but, does, in fact, enjoy some of its strongest support from them- scientists, engineers, statisticians, etc., who do not consider themselves to be good developers. And, man, they can develop some crappy code/systems in Python too. I like Python too (as well as node,) but your characterization of node is over-broad and, imo, inaccur…

> You do realize that Python was not only built to appeal to "non-devs" ... as an alternative to C++ and Perl. And in that respect, it is a snap to pick up. It is pretty easy, not as easy as, say, Javascript, but still easy to pick up, I agree. Node.js is cancer. We all use it, because of the momentum it has with designers instantly being able to declare themselves "full-stack devs", but make no mistake -- Node.js an…

If you're not a .NET developer, what are you realistically going to use that hasn't already been dated? Rails? Django? Perl? PHP?

Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#94

Post by serge2k »

spion wrote: post #65
mhuffman wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are (well developed) bandaids to help deal with the cancer of javascript!

Hurray, here we go again! Uhh no, JavaScript is just fine, baring: * implicit conversions, which you can get rid of at compile time using TypeScript or Flow. * lack of explicit ints and ints with more than 31 bits (JITs can give you SMIs, or 31 bit integers for things they can prove are always integer values) And thats about it.

> implicit conversions, which you can get rid of at compile time using TypeScript or Flow.

Javascript is fine if you don't use Javascript.

> lack of explicit ints and ints with more than 31 bits

Javascript is fine, except where it's garbage.

I don't really have a problem with javascript. I just don't want to build anything of any real complexity with it.

Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#95

Post by bradscarleton »

biocomputation wrote: post #73
bradscarleton wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Complex in the sense that they were originally thrown together and the results of the program might best be described as "stochastic output", yeah I can agree with that. Absolutely, they are complex because of poor initial designs, and actually even more complex now due to all the efforts to maintain backwards compatibility... > Sure, but it sure seems funny that "high quality code" is nearly non-existent in PHP an…

>> So I guess it depends on your definition of "high quality code". I don't think quality code is about some arbitrary coding aesthetic. It's about results, and it's about what your code does, and how it creates value. Moving the goal posts so that the definition of 'high quality' is basically code that compiles and runs as long as it 'creates value'? What about when you have to change it later? What about if it has…

> People who think that Javascript and PHP are crappy languages aren't just comparing these languages to 'arbitrary coding aesthetics'.

I'm not defending the design of JS and PHP. I'm saying that if you are a good engineer, then you can produce code that is quality in these languages.

Also, I'm pretty sure Facebook gets "updated" and is "fast" ;)

Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#96

Post by BoorishBears »

alistproducer2 wrote: post #74
chalupa-man wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised to see JS described as easier than Python. I'd say it's considerably harder and more complex. The first reason being that it forces you to think about asynchronosity constantly, and that's something a beginner's going to struggle with -- not just the idea that your code won't run in order, but that there are so many ways to deal with it (callbacks, promises, async/await, event emitters) all with their o…

You are absolutely correct. JavaScript is by no means as easy for a beginner than Python. Once you get beyond the most basic of programs , JavaScript starts throwing a lot of crazy concepts at you like prototypical inheritance,hoisting, and this (and I'm only counting es5)

The most intimidating part of Js isn't even the language, it's the ecosystem.

Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#97

Post by labster »

aabajian wrote: post #61

Python is the language that, once you know it, you'll never go back. It's gotten to the point where I use it to run an entire backend as well as simple terminal scripts. It's faster to write a Python script to "switch the first and third columns in a file", rather than Googling for an appropriate awk command (or spending the time to come up with one myself).

Python is a great language, but just not one that suits my mode of thinking. I learned Perl first, spent my time in college learning Python, C, Javascript, and FORTRAN 90 (at least the code that had been updated from F77), and eventually went back to Perl as I liked it the best.

I could make a snarky comment about "you'll never go back" being correct, but I do make the occasional commit to a Python project. But honestly I'd rather deal with well-written PHP than well-written Python despite the fact that the Python language is -1 times better than PHP. Just the way my mind works.

Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#98

Post by blitzd »

caleblloyd wrote: post #86
mhuffman wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both PHP and Javascript are much more complex from a language design standpoint Complex in the sense that they were originally thrown together and the results of the program might best be described as "stochastic output", yeah I can agree with that. > A good engineer can write high quality code in "almost" any programming language. It's the coder, not the language, that determines engineering quality. Sure, but it…

They're both sequential by default and lack threading, and that's hard to mess up. They're both great languages for easy projects. PHP code is a breeze to work with using composer, and most packages use namespaces and have great intellisense. But good luck doing anything concurrently. NodeJS is fast, and boy can it handle a lot of tasks at once using the event loop! But I can't for the life of me figure out modules o…

Intellisense can be difficult with JavaScript inside an IDE. I've had some luck with WebStorm and their typescript stubs though.

Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#99

Post by thesmallestcat »

SwellJoe wrote: post #60
mhuffman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do realize that Python was not only built to appeal to "non-devs" ... as an alternative to C++ and Perl. And in that respect, it is a snap to pick up. It is pretty easy, not as easy as, say, Javascript, but still easy to pick up, I agree. Node.js is cancer. We all use it, because of the momentum it has with designers instantly being able to declare themselves "full-stack devs", but make no mistake -- Node.js an…

"as an alternative to C++ and Perl" Do you have a citation for that? My understanding of the timeline and Guido's writings on the subject make it seem very unlikely that C++ or Perl had any significant impact on the decision to create Python or the design of Python. Python would very likely still exist in a world without C++ or Perl, as far as I can tell. Python isn't even in the same lineage as either of those langu…

Didn't Guido post a tongue-in-cheek ad for Python to a/the Perl mailing list in Python's early days? I tried to find it now but no luck.

Re: Announcing Azure Command-Line Interface 2.0 Preview

#100

Post by emilsedgh »

mhuffman wrote: post #29
jimjimjim wrote: post #20

This reminds me of companies rewriting applications from VB to c++/c#. Half the people complained about VB being good enough and more popular. But the overall feeling was that once the rapid application dev version is out the door and ok then it's a good time to redo it with something more engineering-y, for long term support before the first version gets too ossified. (i'm sure i'm going to burn karma for comparing…

> i'm sure i'm going to burn karma for comparing node with vb but... I'll take the hit for you and flat-out say that node.js is the new VB. In fact, for those of you that have been around a while, I think we can all agree that node.js is the new PHP was the new Visual Basic, etc. Not in the sense that they do the same things, but that they were purposely built for non-programmers (baby-devs) to be able to program (wh…

I never got this. Coding in Nodejs is much, much harder that in Python, Ruby, C# or Java.

I've seen .NET (and even C) programmers that after a year of coding using node still don't have a clue what the hell is happening.

Dynamic typing vs. Static typing doesn't make a language harder. If you prefer dynamic languages you are just a bit lazier and short sighted.

Async vs. Sync (specially the way node handles it) IS harder, though.

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