Live data from Hacker News

U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

reuters.com

391–400 of 415 posts

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#391
I'm not totally comfortable with the fact that the knee-jerk reaction here is that an allegation of racial discrimination in hiring is wrong on its face. Although Asians certainly aren't a significantly underrepresented minority in tech on the whole, eliminating bias from hiring processes is a hard problem and it definitely seems plausible to me that Palantir could have, for whatever reason, fallen into an anti-pattern that effectively (if not consciously) discriminated against the Asian applicant pool.

Some of the comments here seem to suggest people might be instinctively identifying with Palantir when they talk about their own difficulties in trying to find qualified job applicants. It's without a doubt incredibly hard to find qualified job candidates, and there's a huge number of factors that can go into making any hire/no-hire decision, but for those very reasons these types of lawsuits from the DOL are both hard for them to win and pretty rare, which suggests to me that there's a fair amount of objectively quantifiable evidence pointing towards discrimination. I think, unfortunately, that it's much more common for widespread discrimination to never be addressed in certain companies than for the federal government to overzealously sue corporations on marginal evidence.

I don't think there's any question that Palantir is going to be ultimately ok as a company, however the law suit turns out. Even if the ruling was to wrongly come down against them, they'd pay $___ million, change their hiring processes so they're at least less likely to be sued again, and then move on with their lives as a hugely valuable multi-billion dollar corporation. Discriminatory hiring processes, on the other hand, I think need to be routed out wherever they may occur because systemic injustices ultimately hurt our society as a whole.

This allegation is very serious and I think needs to be taken seriously. When our instinctive reaction to an accusation of discrimination is that it's more than likely overblown or outright false, we're implicitly endorsing the idea that discrimination is both rare and always obvious, neither of which I think are true. I'm not ready to make any judgements about Palantir as a company or its hiring process, but it seems very likely that they (like any company) have blind spots in the way they're hiring that disadvantage some groups, especially if the DOL thinks there's enough evidence to win a court case over it. The great news for Palantir is that even if that's true, it's not an issue that really affects any core component of them as a company and it's 100% fixable with some extra HR spending.

I think the more constructive take-away from a news article like this is to think about what we ourselves do to eliminate bias from our hiring and potentially talk about what works and what doesn't. No one wants or needs us to hire unqualified candidates, but it's undesirable for us to unfairly exclude groups of qualified candidates because of race or any other discriminatory factor, both because of the societal implications and because we end up missing good candidates in a time where good engineers are in incredibly high demand. Like I said, establishing fair hiring practices is a hard problem; it goes a lot further than just trying to "do the right thing" and reaches into a lot of core parts of how we perceive the world. As engineers we constantly try to study and adjust for our imperfect brains' natural tendencies so that we can build more useful products and get more done. Why can't we try to fight bias in the same way?

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will agree that we seem to be talking past each other :) I don't know the cause of the broken funnel, but that does not stop me from being to identify that there is something broken with how Palantir are filling their funnel. I do think the DOL are looking at the wrong end. What Palantir needs to fix is how they are filling their pipeline so that they capture a much more representative cross section of the talent p…

> I do think the DOL are looking at the wrong end. Its illegal for Palantir to discriminate in the end DOL is looking at irrespective of whether or not they should be doing something at the other end.

I am not sure it is illegal what Palantir is doing (the court case will determine this), but on the face of if 20% of the people you hire are of Asian decent this does not look unreasonable. If their funnel had 20% Asian candidates and they hired 20% I don't think the DOL would have intervened.

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (lefty types) generally want companies, Governments and people to put in effort to expand the "qualified candidate pool" to a point where it generally matches the population, and then put effort into ensuring they're non-discriminatory in hiring. Governments then create indexes which companies and politicians game because it's cheaper to "positively discriminate" in hiring than to put effort into attracting qualif…

What a distressing view of the world, where people are forced to live their lives according to your conception of what the "proper" proportion of things are. The applicant-pool should reflect the people who want the job, period. If the people that want a particular job are 90% women, or 80% men, or 50% black, or whatever, then that's totally fine. We are a nation of individual people deciding what to do with our own…

In practice, people have pressures put on them from an early age to do whatever their elders think is best for them, and, frankly, their elders are often sexist, and the community they're born into might push them one way or another. This goes all the way up to the first year of university for many people.

There really isn't another good reason for a lot of what we see in terms of what people wind up doing (and some of how they behave while doing it!) when they're older, and we're well aware that socialisation during childhood is a powerful thing. As an example, there's relatively few people who are brought up without religion but find religion later - but there's a heck of a lot of people who were brought up with religion and never leave it.

Attempting to remove some of those pressures and counter-balance others seems perfectly reasonable, and unless there actually is something innate which causes boys to enjoy computers and girls to enjoy nursing, the result of that should be that we see a number of job markets level out to look like a reasonable cross-section of the population. Anybody who thinks that independent thinking is a good thing should likely support these efforts, or at least the well-implemented ones.

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible that the same organizations which were found directly discriminating on race, and desperately resist any transparency (both before and after), have secretly reformed. It's also possible that admissions numbers didn't change a lot because "holistic" admissions discovered previously unmeasurable mitigating factors for blacks having low SAT/grades/etc. And in yet another major coincidence, these systems al…

I don't think it's really a secret, the "unmeasurable mitigating factors" are society-wide discrimination issues that make life in general harder for black people. You don't have to pretend there's a secret conspiracy, affirmative action colleges are openly trying to correct for the effects of structural racism that they have no control over. This is certainly a debatable idea, but you don't need to act like it's som…

> You don't have to pretend there's a secret conspiracy, affirmative action colleges are openly trying to correct for the effects of structural racism that they have no control over.

This is an interesting case. In fact, you do have to admit there's a secret conspiracy, for the simple reason that "correcting for the effects of structural racism" is illegal for public colleges, and they therefore never formally admit to that justification. You're correct, though, that that is how they are generally perceived by the public and how their executives generally think about what they're doing, as far as we can tell. I think that's a pretty good match to the concept of "conspiracy".

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's really a secret, the "unmeasurable mitigating factors" are society-wide discrimination issues that make life in general harder for black people. You don't have to pretend there's a secret conspiracy, affirmative action colleges are openly trying to correct for the effects of structural racism that they have no control over. This is certainly a debatable idea, but you don't need to act like it's som…

> You don't have to pretend there's a secret conspiracy, affirmative action colleges are openly trying to correct for the effects of structural racism that they have no control over. This is an interesting case. In fact, you do have to admit there's a secret conspiracy, for the simple reason that "correcting for the effects of structural racism" is illegal for public colleges, and they therefore never formally admit…

> "correcting for the effects of structural racism" is illegal for public colleges

No, its not.

Certain mechanisms might be (whether or not they have that purpose), but pursuing that purpose is not.

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really it was Protestant, heterosexual white men, and maybe some other parameters applied too, but let's keep this simple. Really? You don't think Jews had good jobs in 1950?

Do you know otherwise? If we are talking about the U.S.: Jews were widely excluded from society. I know an American man who is Jewish and went to college in the 1950s. His whole family changed their last name so he could get in; many colleges barred or put quotas on Jewish applicants. Jewish lawyers couldn't work in many leading 'white shoe' firms. Jewish people couldn't join the country clubs and other social organi…

Well, you'll have to work with what I could find in about a minute of searching the internet, which is only suggestive:

> As elsewhere in the United States, the Jews of postwar Los Angles made their most spectacular fortunes in property development. S. Mark Taper, an English Jew with experience in London home construction, arrived in Los Angles in 1939 to lay the basis for one of California’s great real estate empires. Louis Boyer similarly became one of the state’s largest home developers, putting up 50,000 units by the mid-1960s.

> At one point in the late 1960s, Jew comprised perhaps 40 percent of southern California’s homebuilders and at least half of the builders of shopping centers. Other Jewish entrepreneurs provided their building materials. David Familian’s pipe and supply company was the city’s largest. Reuben and Lester Finkelstein built their grandfather’s scrap business into the vastly successful Southwest Steel Rolling Mills, the city’s second largest. Harvey Aluminum Inc., founded in 1934 as a small machine tool company, became southern California’s leading producer of aluminum, titanium, and special alloys.

> Jewish builders not infrequently began investing their savings in banks and savings and loan associations, until Jewish builders-cum-financiers surpassed even the older film magnates as the city’s economic heavyweights. All the while, too, Jews continued to play their traditional role as producers of consumer goods. As in the East, southern California’s clothing industry was largely Jewish, as were liquor and tobacco, and much of the wholesale food trade.

( http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/american-jewry-1945-... , claims to be an excerpt from https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679745300/ )

Being "excluded from society" doesn't mean you get shut out of good jobs. It means you get shut out of certain good jobs. Jews weren't exactly popular in Europe from the Middle Ages forward, but everyone acknowledged that they nevertheless had good jobs.

Disraeli was the English prime minister. (He was formally Anglican, and I find it very plausible that that was politically significant. But it is fairly common for Jews to identify as Jewish by ancestry but not by religion, so he's at least worth bringing up.)

On a different note, I find it interesting how Jews get completely glossed over in opinings such as this one, from elsewhere in the thread:

> IMO it's unlikely to be coincidence that the excluded groups today are exactly those that that suffered overt, legalized discrimination until the civil rights era.

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#397

I'm extremely disappointed by the vitriol and generalisations against Asians in this thread. Marginalising individual candidates because there are trends in the community is the textbook definition of racial profiling. I'm a dev from India. I work hard and always try my best to stay as honest as I possibly can, and I think I'm fairly competent. For the last job offer I received, I had to take around 7 interviews (pho…

Whenever I see white programmers complaining about how "Asians aren't competent" I am mystified. They think themselves better programmers than Raj Reddy, Umesh Vazirani, Vinod Khosla, Arvind, R.V. Guha, and T.V. Raman? That requires a truly special combination of arrogance, racism, and stunted intelligence.

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't have to pretend there's a secret conspiracy, affirmative action colleges are openly trying to correct for the effects of structural racism that they have no control over. This is an interesting case. In fact, you do have to admit there's a secret conspiracy, for the simple reason that "correcting for the effects of structural racism" is illegal for public colleges, and they therefore never formally admit…

> "correcting for the effects of structural racism" is illegal for public colleges No, its not. Certain mechanisms might be (whether or not they have that purpose), but pursuing that purpose is not.

1. You have a good point that "certain mechanisms" are relevant; I spoke too sloppily. Stating the goal without taking any action pursuant to the goal is, as far as I know, fine.

2. You are incorrect on the law to say "whether or not they have that purpose"; race discrimination in admissions is legal (for public schools) when performed for an academic purpose such as "to increase classroom diversity", and illegal when performed to "correct for the effects of structural racism". This is the root cause of the talismanic promotion of "diversity" today. The school's stated purpose is relevant to whether their action is legal or illegal. (If you think this is a travesty, I couldn't agree more. It's still the law.)

2b. Interestingly, some methods of race discrimination (speaking generally, the objective ones) have been found to be illegal regardless of stated purpose. That's a separate issue.

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's really a secret, the "unmeasurable mitigating factors" are society-wide discrimination issues that make life in general harder for black people. You don't have to pretend there's a secret conspiracy, affirmative action colleges are openly trying to correct for the effects of structural racism that they have no control over. This is certainly a debatable idea, but you don't need to act like it's som…

> You don't have to pretend there's a secret conspiracy, affirmative action colleges are openly trying to correct for the effects of structural racism that they have no control over. This is an interesting case. In fact, you do have to admit there's a secret conspiracy, for the simple reason that "correcting for the effects of structural racism" is illegal for public colleges, and they therefore never formally admit…

It is not illegal in most of the country: https://tcf.org/content/commentary/what-can-we-learn-from-st...

And minority enrollment tends to decline in states where affirmative action is banned, so I don't think there are any conspiracies involved: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/24/us/affirmative...

Re: U.S. regulators accuse Palantir of bias against Asians

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a distressing view of the world, where people are forced to live their lives according to your conception of what the "proper" proportion of things are. The applicant-pool should reflect the people who want the job, period. If the people that want a particular job are 90% women, or 80% men, or 50% black, or whatever, then that's totally fine. We are a nation of individual people deciding what to do with our own…

In practice, people have pressures put on them from an early age to do whatever their elders think is best for them, and, frankly, their elders are often sexist, and the community they're born into might push them one way or another. This goes all the way up to the first year of university for many people. There really isn't another good reason for a lot of what we see in terms of what people wind up doing (and some…

Culture is a legitimate source of differences between people and groups of people.
Post reply on HN