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Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

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Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#191

It looks from the videos that the boosters return to land using strictly thrust from the rocket. Can someone explain why it's done that way and a parachute isn't used for at least part of the descent? Seems like an awful waste of fuel.

Because Mars doesn't have a thick enough atmosphere to parachute-land a big spacecraft. The atmosphere is thin not only in density but in altitude.

It wasn't until about 15 years ago that it was realized that we had no clue how to land a large craft on Mars. "Plainly put, with our current capabilities, a large, heavy vehicle, streaking through Mars’ thin, volatile atmosphere only has about ninety seconds to slow from Mach 5 to under Mach 1, change and re-orient itself from being a spacecraft to a lander, deploy parachutes to slow down further, then use thrusters to translate to the landing site and finally, gently touch down." - JPL.[1]

The approaches used for the small landers don't scale. Giant supersonic parachutes a hundred meters across don't look workable. There are some exotic parachute/heat shield concepts such as "hypercones" which have never been tried. Deceleration outside the atmosphere with rockets takes huge amounts of fuel, but should work.

The refueling in orbit plan makes sense. (Sending the fuel tank up first would be simpler, if less impressive visually. Build up fuel storage in orbit with multiple launches. This was von Braun's original lunar plan.)

[1] http://www.universetoday.com/7024/the-mars-landing-approach-...

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#192
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given hundreds (or thousands) of years, yes.

Yeah, I don't argue it can't be done in thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of years. I'm just saying it's probably unwise to focus and spend time and money on this right now. We probably won't even make it to that day. It's better to learn to live on Earth responsibly and then maybe, once we've learned our lessons, start looking further.

> I'm just saying it's probably unwise to focus and spend time and money on this right now. We probably won't even make it to that day. It's better to learn to live on Earth responsibly and then maybe, once we've learned our lessons, start looking further.

I'm quite thankful none of the European powers said "you know, we really should stabilize things here before we try and head west".

And when they landed in America? They KEPT PUSHING. In every single direction. Through revolutions, bloody coups, and multiple changes of government back in Europe, people kept exploring and expanding.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#193
Seems great for all the basic research it will require.

But I'm unsure about the morality of it. I think the drive to expand and discover new things is perhaps a direct cause of the deeper problems we have on Earth. Would humanity be better off just becoming a sustainable population of monks? Or are we morally equivalent to a virus, reduced to survival of the fittest and always seeking out the next host to reap?

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#194
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This brings up a good point. Why mars first? Why not a moon colony first?

Musk just addressed this. Mars has an atmosphere of CO2 and Nitrogen, so we can grow plants, a day length similar to Earth's (24.5 hours), and is larger.

It has an "atmosphere" It's 0.00628 atm according to Wikipedia. That's effectively a vacuum. You can't have liquid water on Mars.

So you can grow plants in some kind of transparent pressurized place... Just like on the Moon.. or on a space station

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#195

We won't really be an interplanetary species until we can get back from Mars. Imagine being colonists on Mars without the ability to be totally self-sustaining without technology and supplies from Earth and nuclear war breaks out. It's going to be a long time before any Mars colony can survive on its own.

The first colonists will most likely not come back. Make no mistake, people are going to die in the first several runs. This will be one of the most dangerous endeavors mankind can attempt. As far as war breaking out, we're not going to make it to Mars in our current state. I don't think Mars is viable until we enter a post scarcity world. I find it unlikely we can even attempt it if we're still in a money based econ…

I finished Red Mars two days ago. A+, hardest scifi I've ever read.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually not a bad way to put it! Think about it this way. What if there was an uninhabited island out in the Pacific that was hard to get to. What makes it worth trying to get to? There isn't anything any more special there than here. In fact from all we've seen so far it's much less special. Same goes for Mars. What is the value in being "multi-planetary?" I mean the idea that this is a hedge against some ex…

I bet the first people that landed on Hawaii were pretty excited about it. The technical challenges on Mars will probably only compound the political problems. Double plus fun.

Hawaii has an extremely productive ecosystem. When your primary needs are food, shelter, and warmth, it's an absolute paradise.

The first people who landed on the Galapagos islands were also pretty excited about it. Once they realized that there is no fresh water there, they got the hell out.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#197
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but you seem to be saying "Let's not be excited about colonizing another planet-- life will be just as depressing there."

I think anytime someone plays to the deeply held hopes and dreams of a given community, especially ones that are related to long-term survival, "destiny" and the like... be very very careful and very very skeptical. That's not to say you should be depressive and cynical, but you should ask questions and seek motives. We're really not close to being a "multiplanetary species", and the major bottlenecks have nothing to…

That really is no excuse however for cheering and weeping with joy when the guy selling the rockets points to the stars and says, "Humanity's future!"

Why not? Just because he's selling something doesn't mean his actions aren't useful.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#198
post #88

What are we going to do on Mars? Live in a plastic box? Send in a bunch of slaves to mine minerals in insufferable conditions? I don't get it.

>What are we going to do on Mars? Probably the same stuff we do on Earth? Also- sports would be pretty cool in low gravity (37% of Earth's gravity)

Are you going to need bones to play them?

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mars has no magnetic field so you get cooked with radiation. Mars' soil contains tons of perchlorate at levels which are very toxic to humans. TBH Venus seems like a better candidate for long term terraforming. You can build floating complexes in it's upper atmosphere, and it has enough oxygen and water locked in it's atmosphere and we might be able to fix the rotation and the density of the atmosphere in one go by u…

Venus also has no magnetic field. It has much stronger gravity as well, requiring larger rockets to take off from it, and it is quite difficult to mine resources from due to the high temperatures and pressures at the surface, meaning all materials for a colony would need to be sent from Earth.

Venus has an induced magnetic field which while isn't as good as what we got on Earth, is better than what you have on Mars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus#Induced_ma...

Additionally the current theory is that if Venus will be sped up to below 56h per rotation it would regenerate it's intrinsic magnetic field which should be near earth levels.

And while Venus does have higher gravity than Mars, it's still lower than Earth's, and overall the delta V for venus insertion orbit is slightly lower than what you need for Mars.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species [video]

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't solve simplest problems on Earth (like re-capturing CO2 for example), but believe we'll be able to terraform a planet to which we haven't even been able to send a human yet?

Watching the presentation I don't see Elon saying that. Likely when we can terraform Mars we can also recapture CO2 and terraforming would be far away. Perhaps you should watch the presentation before commenting negatively on it?

I wasn't the one who said he is going to terraform it.
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