Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#171

Post by vkou » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

avian wrote: post #94

hiisukun wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in two minds about biodegradable plastics. Where I'm from, plastic bags are no longer the norm for supermarkets to pack groceries in, and so most people carry their own re-usable bags to the store, or get goods packed in biodegradable plastics. While this is anecdotal, it is common amongst my peers for the biodegradable bags to be used as general household garbage bags. I think this feels much better than using t…

> Where I'm from, plastic bags are no longer the norm for supermarkets to pack groceries in, and so most people carry their own re-usable bags to the store This used to be the case here as well (Slovenia), until supermarkets started introducing the self-service check-out machines. Those can't be used with re-usable bags (or sometimes can be, but with significant annoyance to everyone present, since an employee must m…

Where I shop (Seattle, US), supermarkets have self-service check-out machines, and I've never had a problem with bringing my own, non-reusable bag.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#172

Post by vkou » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:34 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #163

AJ007 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A alternative approach could be taxing garbage. Perhaps inevitable once sensors become pervasive and cheap enough. Too some extent this is already done and enforced for disposing of blatantly dangerous things. In some cases you could end up in prison in addition to fines, if caught. The more subtle things that add up to a big problem have been given a lot of leeway. Right now it is profitable for many parties to extr…

>A alternative approach could be taxing garbage. Ok, how do you keep people from dumping their garbage in someone else's garbage bin, or in some public place in the middle of the night? This also doesn't really deal with the fact that different garbage has very different effects on the environment and society, and very different mass. "E-waste" frequently doesn't weigh that much, but has a lot of both valuable metals…

> urban dwellers have no place to put a compost pile.

Curb-side compost pickup.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#173

Post by mikeyouse » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:35 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #108

sotojuan wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US it's the exact opposite. Saying you're not religious is political suicide!

Well saying you are not some form of Christian. Both an atheist and a Muslim would have no chance of being elected. Jewish seems to be generally okay. Not sure on Buddhist or other eastern religions.

Being a Catholic was a significant hindrance to JFK's presidential ambitions. You have to be the right kind of Christian.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1692060...

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#174

Post by BatFastard » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:36 PM UTC

madgar wrote: post #114

ab5tract wrote: post #62

Correct me if I am wrong, but under ISDS rules (a la TPP/TTIP), companies could now sue Sweden for potential lost profits as a result of this legislation, right? (Assuming Sweden is signed onto an ISDS treaty, which it probably is not).

In the US, I can sue you just for making this hacker news comment. Doesn't mean I'll make it past the first hearing.

In the US, anyone can sue anyone for anything. And if its Federal Court, it can cost a ton of money before a judge ever even looks at it to throw it out.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#175

Post by Roboprog » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #166

gutnor wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pessimistic too. However, the labour cost is so huge that it will offset some of your points and only give a slight edge to repair and second hand shops. If you don't have a top of the range, almost new fridge or TV, even phone, repair will almost always come close to replacement cost. And replacement give you back a 2 years guarantee with faster turnaround.

> If you don't have a top of the range, almost new fridge or TV, even phone, repair will almost always come close to replacement cost. I tend to repair everything, and let me say that's not true for the vast majority of my possessions, including cars, appliances, electronics, etc. It highly depends on the nature of the failure, but generally parts are cheaper than replacement. Here are a list of things I've recently…

I suspect I will do much more of that after I retire.

It's hard to motivate myself to spend much time on most such activities now. Now saying you don't have a point, just how the day flows sometimes.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#176

Post by hx87 » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

barkbro wrote: post #158

ocschwar wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can figure out how to make the stuff out of bamboo, then we have ourselves a carbon sequestration method. No more global warming.

Bamboo is made of cellulose, which is not what you would want to use for making plastics. The problem with cellulose is that, because it is fibrous, there aren't really any efficient ways of breaking it down.

Wood is also cellulose, but it is an excellent substitute for plastic in many cases (i.e. chopsticks and eating utensils)

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#177

Post by BatFastard » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

hlandau wrote: post #112

This is a very nice move to see. Other people have discussed washing machines below, but there's even more to say on them. Washing machines used to have long warranty periods. Nowadays they tend to be sold with a 2 year warranty, which I believe in the EU is the required minimum. And these manufacturers (Bosch, for example) even have the gall to claim that their products are high quality and that this warranty period…

Regarding rinsing of clothes. People tend to use WAY more detergent then they need. If you look at what consumers reports suggests and what detergent manufacturers suggest, there is a 4 to 1 ratio.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#178

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:41 PM UTC

cmyr wrote: post #157

trevyn wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it's actually tremendously efficient to do it this way, in a way that is not inutitive to the layperson? There are many many other uses for oil and polymer and shipping capacity, and the plastic cutlery industry can leverage these incredible economies of scale.

A problem I have with systems of such complexity is that it feels basically unknowable whether or not this is true. It totally may be. On the otherhand, it might just be that we're basically subsidizing an incredibly expansive practice by creating enormous and complex upstream costs that we ignore in our current accounting.

I'm pretty convinced this is less efficient than doing it locally. The issue here is that when you talk efficiency, you need to ignore monetary issues - moeny is exactly the bullshit complexity that makes those things turn out so weird.

So let's talk energy. Does this pipeline - oil from Middle East, through India, through China, to the West and to the ground makes sense? Probably not so much; I doubt the oil extraction and manufacturing scales that well to justify shipping bulk resources halfway around the world. And definitely nothing justifies just throwing the things away after one use.

What makes things less energy-efficient is monetary considerations. The current chain of production is established on monetary efficiency - which is based on labor costs, transportation costs, etc., which all stem from trade deals and political power of different countries.

Comparing what we have with what could be, the real (and too often forgotten) question is: can we do better? The emphasis is on "can". Maybe the current state of affairs represents close to the best we can reasonably achieve from where we are now. I don't know. Which honestly makes me want to throw my hands up in the air and give up. I don't see a simpler solution than "invent free fusion energy", or something.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#179

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #30

tmptmp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>And the failure mode either sounds dramatic (like a jet engine coming apart in the spin cycle) and/or the machine starts putting brown grease onto the clothes, making people believe the problem is not a simple one. Great insight. I wonder how far we (as in general society) have come from the science/technology aspects of our day to day life. Even repairing simple machines like a washing machine is almost beyond the…

The availability of tools is far from a given as well. It appalls me how few people will tackle what seem to me to be utterly basic repair tasks. I may be on the extreme end, but I think some people would pay someone to change a lightbulb in their house (and I'm sure a great many DO pay someone to replace a headlamp or tail light bulbs). I'm trying to do my part, ensuring that my kids are exposed to the DIY/maker/hac…

Tools? There is a minimal set of tools that will cover a very large number of common household and automobile repairs.

I have had a great track record with nothing but a pair of vice-grips and a 4-bit combination screwdriver (2x flathead, 2x Phillips).

Add to that a claw hammer, pocketknife, roll of duct tape, can of WD-40, toilet plunger, needle-nosed pliers, and a few cheap plastic-coated wire coat hangers, and you should be able to bodge or jury-rig anything long enough to get a real repair done over the weekend.

For instance, did you know that one arm of the tweezers in a Victorinox pocketknife can tighten eyeglasses screws?

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#180

Post by woobar » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 3:44 PM UTC

atburrow wrote: post #95

mhandley wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I've repaired my Bosch washing machine twice in the last year. Once to replace the pump (somehow it ate a pair of tweezers - still not sure how!), and once when one of the mounting brackets for the main drum suspension springs failed. Both were remarkably easy repairs, though the design of the mounting bracket seemed like it was designed to eventually fail after a certain amount of use (or perhaps…

Some parts on a washing machine are definitely designed to break. For example, the couplings [1] on a washing machine are usually made of a plastic material. They are designed to break when introduced to various amounts of stress. Breaking under stress protects the motor from damage (which is a lot more expensive to replace). It's definitely frustrating when the washer breaks down for this reason, but the repair is e…

In my old washer this coupling will routinely break almost each year. After ten years I have mastered the replacement process (removing the case, turning machine upside down, and detaching the motor) in under 15 minutes.

Pro tip: if you decide to DIY, order half a dozen of these [1] couplings in advance.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/3364003-3364002-REPLACEMENT-KITCHENAI...