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Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

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Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#71

Post by ardacinar »

dijit wrote: post #44
sheraz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see why you and many others living outside of the region would think that. Sweden is very good at only extolling her perceived "virtues" and sweeping the rest under the rug. Waaaay under the rug. There is a real moral and intellectual superiority among many Swedes that I find deeply distasteful. From environment to politics to how to bag your groceries, and yes--even close a door properly, the "Swedish way" is alwa…

Out of curiosity where do you live? Perhaps this is a regional thing but down here in Skane people are very humble about being Swedish, almost as if they are ashamed of some sort of history. They certainly wouldn't describe something as "the Swedish way" unless it was something about how the police are ineffective due to bureaucracy or something similar.

In general, Swedes are pretty self-depreciating people. But, down there, people might be just ashamed of being from Skåne :)

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#72

Post by icebraining »

J-dawg wrote: post #11
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #5

What we really need is financial penalties on companies that make stuff deliberately hard to repair. Set up a department of the Consumer Rights Bureau (or whatever it's called) where people can report devices the've been unable to fix due to deliberate obfuscation/etc., and that forces manufacturers to refund the consumer the entire purchase sum of that device no matter how old it is. Anecdote: my washing machine rec…

That is utterly infuriating. Stuff like this really shakes my faith in capitalism. To think that someone in charge at Bosch has actively decided to 1. Screw over the customer 2. Impose a massive external cost on society and the ecosystem. I honestly wonder how they sleep at night. The market clearly can't fix this issue, so regulation must be the only option.

To think that someone in charge at Bosch has actively decided to 1. Screw over the customer 2. Impose a massive external cost on society and the ecosystem.

Alternatively, they know that very few people did repair the old versions (barely anyone know how to do it themselves, and labour costs in the developed world make it uneconomical to call someone) and they decided to reduce waste (and costs, win-win) by cutting down on the number of screws.

I don't know what actually happened, but it's unproductive to assume malice. The reality is that for the most part, markets optimize for what's valued for the consumers, and "easily repairable" is not a feature people value that much.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#73

Post by kalleboo »

dijit wrote: post #44
sheraz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see why you and many others living outside of the region would think that. Sweden is very good at only extolling her perceived "virtues" and sweeping the rest under the rug. Waaaay under the rug. There is a real moral and intellectual superiority among many Swedes that I find deeply distasteful. From environment to politics to how to bag your groceries, and yes--even close a door properly, the "Swedish way" is alwa…

Out of curiosity where do you live? Perhaps this is a regional thing but down here in Skane people are very humble about being Swedish, almost as if they are ashamed of some sort of history. They certainly wouldn't describe something as "the Swedish way" unless it was something about how the police are ineffective due to bureaucracy or something similar.

It seems a lot more complicated than either your view or the grandparents. If you watch Fredrik Lindströms "Världens Modernaste Land" it explores the question of the conflicting Swedish self-image pretty well (and the history of how it became what it is today), but I wouldn't know how to summarize it in a Hacker News comment.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#74

Post by [deleted] »

Teever wrote: post #67
yodsanklai wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only a matter of ability, but also of opportunity cost. For instance, when I was a teenager, I always fixed my bicycle by myself. Nowadays, I guess I could do it if I had too, but I prefer to pay $50 and have somebody else do it for me. Same goes for washing machines or similar appliance, I'm sure many people could manage to fix them by themselves by spending enough time, but is it worth it?

I agree but I think it is worth considering what the opportunity cost of letting those skills atrophy. Can you still fix your bicycle? Like if you had no money or were stuck somewhere distant could you still do it? Is it just because you're older now and have income that you pay someone to do it or is it something society in general does? Do children's parents just get someone to fix their bike or throw it away and g…

[deleted]

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#75

Post by kalleboo »

gambiting wrote: post #28

The only problem with repairing devices is labour cost, nothing else. I've had a broken subwoofer that I took to a small electronics shop(in UK), and was quoted 60 pounds to even have it looked at. Not repaired - looked at. The subwoofer cost me 80 pounds on ebay. So predictably, it went straight to the bin. Same with washing machines, dryers, etc - I bought a Hotpoint washing machine for 220 pounds, but a standard c…

> Not sure how we can change that, unless we get the labour cost down.

If my living was covered by basic income, playing electronics detective and fixing broken stuff sounds like a somewhat fun and fulfilling job (even though 90% of my day may be spent replacing caps). Or I may have just been watching too many electronics YouTube videos lately...

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#76

Post by belorn »

JanneVee wrote: post #51
jokoon wrote: post #4

I fail to understand why Scandinavian politics always manage to make sense. Is that cultural, historical, economical, or does the tough climate force people to think a little bit more about how they manage their society?

The devil is in the details. For example the "chemical tax" is on the weight of the products, so when you buy consumer electronics you are supposed to be paying 120 kr/kg up to a maximum of 320 kr before VAT. This is blamed on environmnentally hazardous flame retardants on circuit boards. So the very design of this tax incentives less weighty electronic products, but I've learned that some electronic products longevi…

The obvious question is then why they chose to tax the total weight and not the total amount of hazardous flame retardant (or what ever classification they want to categorize the environmentally hazardous chemicals").

Maybe the industry refuse on the ground of trade secrets, or maybe it would be too costly for the producer to produce the correct measurements, or maybe retailers has not enough pressure to get producers to follow such regulative requirements. Thus a imperfect solution with imperfect incentives, but which hopefully is calculated to do more good than harm in the cost-benefit analyses.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#77

Post by ogrisel »

CPLX wrote: post #59

I was happy to see that the author did pause to note the irony of this policy being implemented by the same country that brought the world IKEA.

Not everything is crappy at IKEA: you can get cheap mass pine wood furniture that looks pretty decent (if you paint it to fit your tastes). The cost of such furniture is often cheaper at IKEA than buying the planks of wood at a consumer store.

There is also a tone of crappy pressed wood furnitures that will slowly decay and look ugly 5 years later or will just break and cannot be repaired.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#79

Post by soneil »

yodsanklai wrote: post #56
tmptmp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>And the failure mode either sounds dramatic (like a jet engine coming apart in the spin cycle) and/or the machine starts putting brown grease onto the clothes, making people believe the problem is not a simple one. Great insight. I wonder how far we (as in general society) have come from the science/technology aspects of our day to day life. Even repairing simple machines like a washing machine is almost beyond the…

It's not only a matter of ability, but also of opportunity cost. For instance, when I was a teenager, I always fixed my bicycle by myself. Nowadays, I guess I could do it if I had too, but I prefer to pay $50 and have somebody else do it for me. Same goes for washing machines or similar appliance, I'm sure many people could manage to fix them by themselves by spending enough time, but is it worth it?

I think there's some kind of sliding scale that needs to be teased out. eg, for your bicycle example; if I cycle an hour from home, then have a puncture; I'd rather be able to swap a tube out myself, than walk it home. Even if I can call someone out to me, I can probably do it myself in the time it'd take them to arrive.

Once you can admit there's some level you'd rather be able to do yourself, all you need to do is keep stretching that envelope little by little.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#80

Post by dalke »

legulere wrote: post #31
jokoon wrote: post #4

I fail to understand why Scandinavian politics always manage to make sense. Is that cultural, historical, economical, or does the tough climate force people to think a little bit more about how they manage their society?

There's also lots of things wrong in Scandinavia. There's segregation between the "native" population and the immigrants/their descendants. Suspects for crime, including children are put into isolation by default. Strict drug laws, strict alcohol laws that lead to binge drinking instead of a normal enjoyment of beer/wine. A strong sense that they're the best in the world which they often actively carry outwards. Stil…

The binge drinking I've seen in Sweden is a shadow of the binge drinking I've seen in the UK, which has more lenient laws. Though I dread going to conference in England because their normal end-of-the-day social drinking is my binge drinking, so I'm perhaps not one to say.

I believe that it's common in many if not most countries for its citizens to have a strong sense that they're the best in the world. Forbes has an article from 8 year ago titled "World's Most And Least Patriotic Countries" describing a NORC/U. Chicago study. NORC lists Sweden as one of the least patriotic countries.

Given how much I knew Swedes love their country, and love flying their flag, either that study has methodological errors, or effectively all the citizens of a nation have a strong sense that their nation is the best in the world.

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