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Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

robert.ocallahan.org

131–140 of 303 posts

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#131
post #116
post #98

My neutral (?) view on firefox/chrome: - Firefox uses way less RAM - Chrome is usually faster/smoother, even if not by much. For very odd or intensive sites. And for things like dragging a tab into another window and how long it takes until inspect element loaded. - Firefox has Tree Style Tab, Chrome doesn't and will never have. This alone makes FF the only usable browser for me - I find the non-optional non-native a…

My opposite viewpoint as a web developer: Chrome is faster and renders better than Firefox is pretty much every way. Safari delivers faithful color reproduction and speed. I spent 10x as much time fixing Firefox rendering issues compared to every other browser, including Microsoft Edge. Firefox has lost its edge. I do miss tree style tabs, though.

Firefox has been my primary browser since 0.93, so I am naturally biased, but here is my anecdotal position.

I develop sites in Firefox and then go for compatibility checking in other browsers.

Edge is normally fine.

Chrome is horrible. Atrocious. Abysmal. It implements lots of new features, but they are just so regularly buggy or badly implemented. To select the example I remember the clearest (there have been many more over the years): I went to use flexbox on one site and Firefox agreed with the spec (and what was obvious) on the treatment of some major item sizing issue while Chrome did something altogether different which I really couldn’t think of any justification for and which made flexbox a non-starter in that case. A year or two later they had fixed it in Chrome, but I’ve ever found it like that: Firefox has a slower rate of implementation, but normally implements things well; WebKit/Blink has a faster rate of implementation, but breaks things often (even with a handful of serious bugs in production releases that broke entire websites completely) and has always felt like a toy, rather than a serious, stable browser engine.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#132
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox is good. It has support for modern standards, is performant, has tracking protection built in and plenty of extensions. Google is winning because it's bundling its browser just like Microsoft used to and is aggressively advertising it on all of its web properties, which might have a reach of close to 100% of the web-using population. Firefox also has a reputation for being slow, gotten probably from people do…

Firefox can cope with hundreds of tabs just fine. Way better than Chrome can cope with a similar workload, both in terms of memory usage and UI (Chrome winds up with tabs only a few pixels wide, with no information visible!). Firefox’s reputation is because of its history: when Chrome was new it did perform really well and Firefox did have serious performance issues. Chrome has been marvellous for Firefox. The sad th…

Firefox performance has been miserable on Linux and still is.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#133
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox is good. It has support for modern standards, is performant, has tracking protection built in and plenty of extensions. Google is winning because it's bundling its browser just like Microsoft used to and is aggressively advertising it on all of its web properties, which might have a reach of close to 100% of the web-using population. Firefox also has a reputation for being slow, gotten probably from people do…

> Firefox also has a reputation for being slow, gotten probably from people doing ridiculous things as keeping tens of tabs open and not restarting it for dayes Do you mean it has the reputation from people doing this 5 or 10 years ago and it's stuck? Or is this still a problem for Firefox?

In my use case, it's still a problem if you have a bunch of tabs loaded, but I think the class of problem is somewhat different than it is in, say, Chrome. Sure, Firefox gets a bit sluggish with 500-700 tabs open, but since I don't have a habit of keeping a single session open for days (then it IS a problem), the net effect is relatively small since restarting Firefox generally behaves as if the inactive tabs from the last session weren't open. Obviously, if you click through tabs you opened previously, then it'll load them but otherwise it's fine. So there's some truth to it, but as with most things, it depends.

I use Firefox mostly because I have a terrible habit of clicking any link that looks remotely interesting with the intent to come back to it for later reading. Granted, it rarely works quite like that, but Chrome became a bear after 150-200 tabs (and often started capping my RAM). For all its faults, Firefox (again, in my use case) still manages to stay around ~2GiB unless I do something stupid or watch a bunch of YouTube videos (under Linux). Chrome does well, but the UI became unusable since you couldn't scroll through opened tabs without having specialized addons and such. I'm not sure if this is still the case, and even if it's changed, I don't think I'd go back. The RAM usage was too much, but I fully understand Chrome was probably never designed with my browsing habits in mind. Whereas I've seen claims that allege a handful of Firefox developers are tabholics. I'd believe it.

Somewhat off-topic: One thing I really like about Firefox is the profile manager. I've started creating separate profiles for general browsing, documentation, and videos sometimes with extensions tailored for each. It was a slight pain to change my habits around to accommodate that, but I've noticed if one instance hangs, it's not much of a problem. With multiprocesses on the horizon, maybe this will cause me to change my browsing habits again, but I think I like the profile isolation for enough reasons unrelated to performance to continue as is. Perhaps this is abusing it somewhat, but it works for me. If you keep a relatively clean profile with few tabs open, Firefox stays pretty snappy.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#134

Android is winning but the percentage that still use Apple is significant. Thank "the sheep" I guess... The winners mentioned are the ones that require the most resources, so I guess they'll keep being that even with Bing, etc I do use Firefox, sometimes it seems Chrome has more issues, sometimes it's FF, but I'd say they're pretty comparable (though FF has better dev tools builtin and it is easier to configure a pro…

Not offended, but I don't consider myself a sheep. While some see no difference between mega-corps, there are a few key things that I value Apple for over Google.

1. The seamlessness of the ecosystem.

2. The low rate at which products are introduced only to be unceremoniously knifed when you least expect it.

3. The fact that I'm the customer not the product.

4. The public stance they've taken on their customers' security & privacy, backed by concrete design decisions.

I still remember switching to Google from Altavista. I'm currently midway through disentangling my online presence from Google.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#135
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Google has market leverage. However, when IE was Firefox's competitor, MS was in just as powerful of a position, and Firefox was a success. They were a success because they clearly had the better browser. These days, that's no longer the case. I know that I certainly did not switch from Firefox because of Google's marketing efforts or underhanded tactics. But what if you're right? In a world where, I agree, it t…

I think people think Chrome is a best browser is because it performs better on Google products than any other browser. And as people are using GMail, Youtube or other, they see Chrome as the best browser.

Sorry but that is just not true, Firefox has miserable DOM performance that results in laggyness, freezes on pages that work fine with Chrome. Until the Firefox people accept that their browser sucks can they finally try to make it better.

There is no sandboxing (in the works for how many years now?), their pdfjs is not as fast as the chrome native plugin, they force me to use the insecure and terribe flash plugin that crashes every time, one frozen tab still freezes the entire browser.

No I don't want to use Chrom{e,ium}. I wasn't tricked into choosing google. I just want something that works.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#136
post #40

What always strikes me about these pleas is how familiar they sound. They're reminiscent of all the things we "should" -- eat better, exercise more, lower our carbon footprint -- and I suspect they all see just about the same level of long term success. Firefox did well when their only real competitor (MS) was actively trying to make their own browser bad in order to preserve the relevance of the desktop OS and their…

The public at large will never be swayed to use less convenient alternatives for ethical reasons. But even so, if a small, dedicated group of people are convinced, they can keep the ethical alternative just alive enough that it remains a somewhat viable alternative. I don't think vegetarianism will ever be the norm, but there are enough vegetarians to create a market for vegetarian food. This creates options for peop…

googlers need more kale in their diet

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#137
Firefox lost me when they conspired to kill WebSQL. They were the ones used the vast marked share they had to push the trendy thing of the day, namely nosql and IndexeDB, a technology which is bemoaned by web developers today.

I think the fact that there is another post about SQLite on the front page right now, attests that it would have been better to just standardise that. But then all those greenfield "spec hackers" wouldn't have had the fun of building cloud castles.

As a web developer and a browser user I'm tired of things not working. And if that means less options in terms of browsers I don't care as long as the browsers that are there give me a solid foundation to work with.

I'd rather have less options with more freedom of choice because all the different options are compatible and interchangeable, than many options but little choice, because their features sets are all disjoint and nothing is compatible.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#138
I absolutely believe that there is no way around the described future of Alphabet dominating the web sooner or later.

But I also believe that this is not going to be the end but instead will make it desirable again to create something new - there will be a new breed of hackers and power users creating new and alternative web based on P2P- and blockchain-technologies, meshed-networks ... I think it's going to be cool :)

(Though I'd be in favor of simply reducing Google's power - but that is simply not going to happen - no matter what browser I use and how many people I convince to use FireFox.)

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#139

The only reason chromium is my primary browser is the developer tools (it's a pain to use Firefox for normal browsing, but Chromium for debugging.) I can only hope for chrome's devtools to be ported to firefox. (firebug is close but slow).

I use Chrome for developing and Firefox for normal browsing. That way, I know when I'm wasting my time ;-)

Simply, I just couldn't switch to Chrome for normal browsing. One thing I couldn't do without is the bookmark tagging in FF. I also like the fact that the address bar behaves much more predictably, like when I type something and it shows me links only from my recent history.

Youtube does play better in Chrome, FF uses a lot more CPU and it is a known issue. So now I use Chrome for playing Youtube and FF for everything else! It's a mess.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, or Later You Won't Get a Choice (2014)

#140
post #40

What always strikes me about these pleas is how familiar they sound. They're reminiscent of all the things we "should" -- eat better, exercise more, lower our carbon footprint -- and I suspect they all see just about the same level of long term success. Firefox did well when their only real competitor (MS) was actively trying to make their own browser bad in order to preserve the relevance of the desktop OS and their…

This is a misleading comparison. You imply that firefox is far behind chrome in terms of general quality. Although I use chrome a lot, I also use firefox daily. And the quality difference is essentially nil(1). In many relevant ways firefox was at times better; but the details shift from release to release. I certainly isn't true that typical users would run into huge problems by using firefox.

1: on a desktop. I also regularly use FF/chrome/edge on a laptop, where FF's slowness+ power usage is possibly slightly noticeable (not very), and I also use multiple browsers on mobile, where FF clearly is behind (though it's not clear how much of that is due to FF+chrome, and how much is due to websites simply only ever testing on mobile chrome and possibly iOS - not that it does the end-user any good)

The difference between the browsers is overstated. If it weren't for vendor lock-in effects, you could use FF today and barely notice the difference.

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