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As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

#41

Post by sevenless »

cstanley wrote: post #18
cstanley wrote: post #4

So we can all play more video games: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-a... "Most of the blame for the struggle of male, less-educated workers has been attributed to lingering weakness in the economy, particularly in male-dominated industries such as manufacturing. Yet in the new research, economists from Princeton, the University of Rochester and the University of Chicago say that an additio…

How could one design economically productive outputs from a video game like playing experience? Thinking something like Ender's game meets Uber drivers...

Already happening: WoW gold farmers.

Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

#42

Post by Animats »

zorpner wrote: post #39
zxcvvcxz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I don't know who in their right minds is thinking basic income will work out well for society based on the predilections of the masses. Most people do. not. like. to. work. Period. But work is good for society. Idle hands are the devil's tools after all, and where one finds high unemployment, they are almost certain to find crime, drugs, gangs, single mothers, and most everything else that reasonable people cons…

where one finds high unemployment, they are almost certain to find crime, drugs, gangs, single mothers This is because of poverty, not idle hands.

Nope. Look at the history of big housing projects in the days of generous welfare payments. Food, clothing, shelter, and some spending money were provided. Huge crime rate.

Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

#43

Post by andruby »

grondilu wrote: post #40

What about we let the prices fell slowly towards zero as automation makes things cheaper and cheaper to produce? What's the point of distributing money if things are free?

That was Karl Marx's plan. Didn't pan out perfectly though.

Most people just want more and more stuff. Cheaper prices will only result in people buyijg more.

Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

#44

Post by ido »

wyldfire wrote: post #23
wingless wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else can they do? With the new wave of AI and automation there will be no jobs left for people with below average intelligence. You will need more and more researchers and programmers but not everyone can do those jobs.

> more researchers and programmers but not everyone can do those jobs. Research is suited to fairly scientific minds but I think programming is totally something anyone who's interested can do. Software development continues to modernize and become more accessible. If you're motivated, I'd say you can definitely do programming. And the best part is that it applies to virtually any existing job.

It's easy to think so if you've been programming for a while, but try to teach programming to kids (or adults) and realize this really does depend on some inherent ability and/or interest (and this is even with a self-selected group who chose to go to a programming course).

You probably can get most everyone programming at a basic level, like we did with reading and writing, by requiring it at a primary school level.

However, a lot of these people will be about as useful as professional programmers as the average person is as a professional author.

Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

#45

Post by endswapper »

objectivistbrit wrote: post #34
endswapper wrote: post #2

The Altman quote is on target "I think it’s good to start studying this early. I’m fairly confident that at some point in the future, as technology continues to eliminate traditional jobs and massive new wealth gets created, we’re going to see some version of this at a national scale." However, it will likely be called something different in the near-term in order to gather momentum. Often the argument focuses on the…

People who seriously think a basic income future is desirable should invest the bulk of their research efforts in automation technology. How do you build a fully automated farm? How do you build a fully automated factory and logistics network? How do you build a fully automated hospital? How do you build robots capable of maintaining and fixing all these automated systems? All these things are way beyond current tech…

Automation is reality.

Industry 4.0's path is being charted as we type, and this is posted today in terms of logistics: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12575147

There are things like hospitals that will be tougher to tackle. Money is the currency of power, and I don't see us abandoning power any time soon. So, "Star Trek post-scarcity economy?" I don't think so. However, we will likely experience a temporary(perhaps decades) imbalance between the supply and demand of human labor. In that time, elements of a basic income, or practical equivalents will rise.

I'm not necessarily an advocate of basic income, but an advocate for the basic welfare of everyone.

Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

#46

Post by ZenoArrow »

h4nkoslo wrote: post #6

I haven't heard a good political-economic explanation of how a universal basic income that actually finances the living expenses of a large portion of the population avoids spiraling into yet another welfare program. The point of a UBI in the academic literature is to enable dismantling of high-overhead welfare state in favor of a low-overhead and higher-level grant (check out eg the overhead of Social Security Retir…

> "I haven't heard a good political-economic explanation of how a universal basic income that actually finances the living expenses of a large portion of the population avoids spiraling into yet another welfare program.

The point of a UBI in the academic literature is to enable dismantling of high-overhead welfare state in favor of a low-overhead and higher-level grant (check out eg the overhead of Social Security Retirement income vs Social Security Disability income), but that tradeoff is somehow never actually offered."

Two main points:

1. UBI is a form of welfare, but if you're concerned about UBI spiraling into a welfare program in the sense of means-tested welfare, why would it? If everyone gets the same, and the basic needs are all met (including free education and free healthcare) the only reason it would change into a means-tested program is if the government couldn't afford it. Which leads us onto point 2...

2. When it comes to financing UBI, it's best not to do so through taxation. Instead you do so through money creation. At the moment the system used in countries like the UK and US for money creation effectively is a money-making venture for the banking system. By moving to debt-free money and using UBI as the vehicle for new money to reach the system, you minimise the risk of UBI contributing to government debt.

Lastly, there is another way to not use UBI but still tackle the same issues, and that's to make the basics of life free for all. However, I'd suggest that would require coordinated effort on the international level, UBI seems like a more realistic transitionary approach.

Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

#47

Post by FrozenVoid »

coldtea wrote: post #20
StriverGuy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit of a Luddite viewpoint. There will be some ups and downs as people adjust to the need for different skill sets however, automation won't simply wipe out any need for human labor. There are lots of things that will likely never be cost effective to automate or are impossible to automate.

The opposite of Luddite is believe that it will all get sorted out in the end inevitable. As the fall of Rome, the middle ages, and several other dark periods in human history show, this is now always the case. > There are lots of things that will likely never be cost effective to automate or are impossible to automate. Several things, yes. A lot, no. And even if those types of jobs were many, what matters is the num…

>As for more artistic jobs http://ostagram.ru/static_pages/lenta?last_days=30&locale=en https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VTI1BBLydE

Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

#48

Post by Animats »

Eatsa is not automated. It's just an automat[1], with people in a conventional kitchen in back filling the glass-fronted boxes.

The Government as the employer of last resort (see Works Progress Administration) has a better track record than a basic income. Plus you get a lot more infrastructure built.

[1] http://www.theautomat.com/

Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need a Guaranteed Basic Income

#50

Post by cstanley »

intrasight wrote: post #36
cstanley wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make art, educate themselves, read books - but the reward mechanisms of those activities are much less stimulating than those of video games.

I respectfully disagree that they are less stimulating. Those things are stimulating at a deeper and I think more grounded level.

Yeah, less stimulating is a bit vague. I was thinking of the effects that playing video games has on the reward center of your brain - the creation of dopamine... more related to addiction than outright stimulation I suppose.
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