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Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

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Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#11

Post by badminton1 »

Scea91 wrote: post #10
badminton1 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is one language. Many of those subsets are not mutually exclusive. Regardless of what your preference is, if you claim to know C++ you need to at least know some of its basic features, such as references, streams, templates, STL, etc. (features that have been around for a long time). And if you claim expertise, to at least be familiar with basic features from the new standards.

If you claim expertise you have to be more than familiar with the basic features. Thats not expertise.

Strictly speaking, that's true.

But in terms of knowing the latest features, it might be hard to keep up with the latest developments in C++, especially since even if a standard is released, it takes some time for compilers to implement them.

Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#12

Post by ratboy666 »

TickleSteve wrote: post #9
badminton1 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is one language. Many of those subsets are not mutually exclusive. Regardless of what your preference is, if you claim to know C++ you need to at least know some of its basic features, such as references, streams, templates, STL, etc. (features that have been around for a long time). And if you claim expertise, to at least be familiar with basic features from the new standards.

true, they're all overlapping subsets.... The point being that the way you structure your software in each of those styles is very, very different. They're all idiomatic C++.... just different idioms. In fact, thinking about it, thats what it is... C++ is a multi-idiom language.

Sure, with an execution model that is so complex that it takes scientific experimentation to determine the /best/ (in terms of execution speed) to write code to manipulate a simple memory mapped device. (This, from the lecture).

That is so complex, it is the only language that I need the language at hand to read someone else's code. Not a library reference, a /language/ reference.

Indeed, I am maintaing one C++ application. This is a wrapper for CEF3 (https://cefbuilds.com/). This is the Chromium browser as a library. I have to support the library and wrapper on two platforms: Linux 64 bit and Windows 64 bit. Note that the usual Windows build uses the Microsoft C++ compiler. But, I am uses mingw. This requires source code edits to compile! I blame the complexity of the language.

Indeed, C++ is so difficult that the shop I work for (which is, by the nature of our product, very conservative) has gone to Java instead.

Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#13

Post by pjmlp »

badminton1 wrote: post #4

C++ is really hard. I have learned enough about it to understand that there's a lot of idiomatic ways of achieving things that I do not understand, especially with the latest standards. When someone claims to know C++, especially in a recruitment context, I tend to challenge that, since it's really hard to actually believe these days. Some people claim to know C++, but basically just write everything as if it was C.

The same is true of any language with similar history.

Do you believe anyone knows Perl, Python, Ruby, Java, C#, Ada, Haskell, OCaml, VB.NET, F#, ... across all language versions, the whole standard library, and most used third party libraries?

One always need to focus on a specific domain.

Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#14

Post by pjmlp »

ratboy666 wrote: post #12
TickleSteve wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

true, they're all overlapping subsets.... The point being that the way you structure your software in each of those styles is very, very different. They're all idiomatic C++.... just different idioms. In fact, thinking about it, thats what it is... C++ is a multi-idiom language.

Sure, with an execution model that is so complex that it takes scientific experimentation to determine the /best/ (in terms of execution speed) to write code to manipulate a simple memory mapped device. (This, from the lecture). That is so complex, it is the only language that I need the language at hand to read someone else's code. Not a library reference, a /language/ reference. Indeed, I am maintaing one C++ appli…

We did the same in 2006, and are mainly a Java/.NET consulting shop nowadays, but I still use C++ on side projects.

Given language difficulty, while I hope never to maintain C++ code that makes use of SFINAE, Java's simplicity is misleading.

The language might appear simple, but mastering the whole Java eco-system (JSE, JEE, Spring, embedded, Android, features per JDK version), performance monitoring tools, commercial JDKs and IDEs, isn't that easier either.

Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#15

Post by daurnimator »

pjmlp wrote: post #13
badminton1 wrote: post #4

C++ is really hard. I have learned enough about it to understand that there's a lot of idiomatic ways of achieving things that I do not understand, especially with the latest standards. When someone claims to know C++, especially in a recruitment context, I tend to challenge that, since it's really hard to actually believe these days. Some people claim to know C++, but basically just write everything as if it was C.

The same is true of any language with similar history. Do you believe anyone knows Perl, Python, Ruby, Java, C#, Ada, Haskell, OCaml, VB.NET, F#, ... across all language versions, the whole standard library, and most used third party libraries? One always need to focus on a specific domain.

FWIW, this is why I use lua as my primary language: it's the only language I can keep all in my head at once.

Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#16

Post by satysin »

badminton1 wrote: post #4

C++ is really hard. I have learned enough about it to understand that there's a lot of idiomatic ways of achieving things that I do not understand, especially with the latest standards. When someone claims to know C++, especially in a recruitment context, I tend to challenge that, since it's really hard to actually believe these days. Some people claim to know C++, but basically just write everything as if it was C.

I have been programming in C++ for almost 17 years now and I would say I know maybe 20-25% at most.

The reality of C++ is you know what is needed for the problem you need to solve. As people mostly work in the same (broad) areas for their day to day work it is unlikely you need to know outside of that scope regularly. At least not in my personal experience.

Also I strongly believe nobody truly understands C++ streams :)

Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#17

Post by FrozenVoid »

Only a handful of modern C++ features appeal to me. In order to use them, i actually have to use other features(less desirable, like templates or class inheritance) which create bloat, latency and corner cases requiring knowledge of the inner structure of the things(like variadic functions actually being variadic template syntax sugar). Ease of use which C++ brings is 'balanced' by opaque and hard debugging, large executable sizes and large memory use.

Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#18

Post by KayEss »

FrozenVoid wrote: post #17

Only a handful of modern C++ features appeal to me. In order to use them, i actually have to use other features(less desirable, like templates or class inheritance) which create bloat, latency and corner cases requiring knowledge of the inner structure of the things(like variadic functions actually being variadic template syntax sugar). Ease of use which C++ brings is 'balanced' by opaque and hard debugging, large ex…

Can you give some concrete examples?

Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#19

Post by blub »

satysin wrote: post #16
badminton1 wrote: post #4

C++ is really hard. I have learned enough about it to understand that there's a lot of idiomatic ways of achieving things that I do not understand, especially with the latest standards. When someone claims to know C++, especially in a recruitment context, I tend to challenge that, since it's really hard to actually believe these days. Some people claim to know C++, but basically just write everything as if it was C.

I have been programming in C++ for almost 17 years now and I would say I know maybe 20-25% at most. The reality of C++ is you know what is needed for the problem you need to solve. As people mostly work in the same (broad) areas for their day to day work it is unlikely you need to know outside of that scope regularly. At least not in my personal experience. Also I strongly believe nobody truly understands C++ streams…

What are the components of C++ that add up to 100%?

I can count:

* language basics (variables, structural statements, functions, error handling, preprocessor, how compilation works)

* OOP

* functional programming (which is not that complicated at all in C++)

* generic programming

* advanced generic programming and metaprogramming

* the C standard library

* the C++ standard library basics (containers, algorithms, smart pointers, cout * more advanced c++ standard library (maths stuff, threading(?), chrono, advanced streams (not needed))

I think most C++ programmers have a reasonable command of all of these except the metaprogramming and advanced standard library.

Re: Talking to C Programmers about C++ [video]

#20

Post by satysin »

pjmlp wrote: post #14
ratboy666 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, with an execution model that is so complex that it takes scientific experimentation to determine the /best/ (in terms of execution speed) to write code to manipulate a simple memory mapped device. (This, from the lecture). That is so complex, it is the only language that I need the language at hand to read someone else's code. Not a library reference, a /language/ reference. Indeed, I am maintaing one C++ appli…

We did the same in 2006, and are mainly a Java/.NET consulting shop nowadays, but I still use C++ on side projects. Given language difficulty, while I hope never to maintain C++ code that makes use of SFINAE, Java's simplicity is misleading. The language might appear simple, but mastering the whole Java eco-system (JSE, JEE, Spring, embedded, Android, features per JDK version), performance monitoring tools, commercia…

There is nothing "simple" about Java once you get past the basics. When you get into the EE world it gets extremely complicated.
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