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Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org

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Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#101

Post by Jugurtha »

hga wrote: post #92
Jugurtha wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or this one: > HARTECK: Who is to blame? > (?) VOICE: HAHN is to blame. > WEIZSÄCKER: I think it's dreadful of the Americans to have done it. I think it is madness on their part. > HEISENBERG: One can't say that. One could equally well say "That's the quickest way of ending the war.” > HAHN: That's what consoles me. Sharp.

His "fault" a very direct way: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12568722

I was talking about Heisenberg being sharp. You can see through his comments he can talk with detachment about issues and offer perspective as would a complete outsider. He talks casually, almost as a commentator in a documentary.

>HEISENBERG: There is a great difference between discoveries and inventions. With discoveries one can always be skeptical and many surprises can take place. In the case of inventions, surprises can really only occur for people who have not had anything to do with it. It's a bit odd after we have been working on it for five years.

It seems like they're talking about the issues at hand, and he's just sitting there thinking about all of this in an abstract way, like it doesn't matter.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#102

Post by hga »

Noseshine wrote: post #100
hga wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed an impressive feat, but in physical terms utterly irrelevant to actually ending the war, since their ability to more than morally effect the home islands of Japan was all but nil. The moral effect of running through the Imperial Japanese Army in Manchuria "like crap through a goose" might have been decisive in allowing the surrender to proceed, in suppressing the IJA leadership. Heck, their predictions about h…

> but in physical terms utterly irrelevant to actually ending the war This thread had a specific topic. That is what I replied to. There was the claim/suspicion the Russians waited until the victor was known, and I pointed out that there is a perfectly valid explanation without the cynicism. Not because the latter isn't too often appropriate when looking at international (or business, or human) affairs, but because s…

To go further down the rabbit hole, there were only two ways the US would have lost the war against Imperial Japan, and the second was Soviet subversion after the war in Europe was finished and we were not only not needed by them, but actively unwanted as a fully mobilized Great Power. Then again, as I mentioned above, we were rapidly transferring divisions wholesale for redeployment in the Pacific for Operation Downfall. What I'd really like to know is when the Bring the Boys Back Home propaganda campaign began, before or after VJ Day; my Google Fu isn't good enough right now.

The other way, of course, would be the Japanese scheme to make us tire of cost in blood, and their Air Force and Navy had a truly unpleasant surprise in store for the US Navy with vastly more kamikazes ready than we thought, which would have been much more effective than in Okinawa due to the vastly shorter distances and navigational skills required. That was, BTW, the bloodiest US Navy battle in history.

So underestimated that half our carrier air assets were assigned to the north of the relevant area, and the planned CAPs were way to thin to have stopped all that many of them. Although we could have at least somewhat corrected those in a few days after the magnitude of the kamikaze threat materialized, but there's no guarantee of success on our part, and if the Japanese had managed, as they planned, to take out troop transports....

On the other hand, we were really angry by then, and fighting to win. Is there any indication that they thought the outcome in the Pacific was in doubt? (Serious question, I don't know.)

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#103

Post by RandomOpinion »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #95
RandomOpinion wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really matter whether one dies from a nuclear bomb, an incendiary bomb, a conventional explosive bomb? The latter two have killed far, far more than nuclear weapons ever have.

I don't know, survivors of the nuclear blast were in such pain that they begged the nurses to kill them. Also the nuking of the cities was really unnecessary- it could have been demonstrated without the loss of life.

I imagine there were many burn victims from the incendiary bombs on Tokyo and other cities that were in such pain that they begged their nurses to kill them too. What's your point?

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#104

Post by meowface »

whoopdedo wrote: post #57
zerooneinfinity wrote: post #15

Some of them seemed relieved the war was going to be over. It was also interesting they weren't that interested in winning. HEISENBERG: One can't say that. One could equally well say "That's the quickest way of ending the war.” HAHN: That's what consoles me WEIZSÄCKER: I believe the reason we didn't do it was because all the physicists didn't want to do it, on principle. If we had all wanted Germany to win the war we…

Might they have known or suspected that they were being recorded? Their words may have been chosen to make them sound good were they to be brought before a tribunal.

Especially considering they were very familiar with an oppressive regime known for its secret police and intelligence gathering from various agencies.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#105

Post by rubberstamp »

Spooky23 wrote: post #37
Cyph0n wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at Unit 731 vs. the Nazi human experimentation program during WWII. In exchange for the data gathered through 731's history, the U.S. turned a blind eye. The Nazis however were tried by U.S. military courts for conducting such experiments. Hypocrisy at its finest. Unit 731: "Instead of being tried for war crimes, the researchers involved in Unit 731 were secretly given immunity by the U.S. in exchange for…

That's the difference between utter destruction of the enemy vs an unconditional surrender with conditions. The US was put in a shitty position by the opportunistic Soviet intervention. So we ended up with a curbed emperor, an American who fancied himself an emperor, and whitewash. Remember that the Republic of China was still a thing, and the political implications of taking a relative soft approach to Japanese atro…

> The US was put in a shitty position by the opportunistic Soviet intervention.

US was not put in shitty position by soviets. US wanted soviets open war on east, and the soviets agreed that they will, within 3 months, once war with Germany is over. Looking at the timelines it appears to me soviets only kept their word they gave to americans at the Yalta conference

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#106

Post by sesqu »

Jugurtha wrote: post #101
hga wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His "fault" a very direct way: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12568722

I was talking about Heisenberg being sharp. You can see through his comments he can talk with detachment about issues and offer perspective as would a complete outsider. He talks casually, almost as a commentator in a documentary. >HEISENBERG: There is a great difference between discoveries and inventions. With discoveries one can always be skeptical and many surprises can take place. In the case of inventions, surpr…

Heisenberg is remembered for his theorem on quantum observation being necessarily incomplete. It's not terribly surprising to find he had a perspective-seeking approach in other matters.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#107

Post by Jugurtha »

sesqu wrote: post #106
Jugurtha wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about Heisenberg being sharp. You can see through his comments he can talk with detachment about issues and offer perspective as would a complete outsider. He talks casually, almost as a commentator in a documentary. >HEISENBERG: There is a great difference between discoveries and inventions. With discoveries one can always be skeptical and many surprises can take place. In the case of inventions, surpr…

Heisenberg is remembered for his theorem on quantum observation being necessarily incomplete. It's not terribly surprising to find he had a perspective-seeking approach in other matters.

Pardon me but, can you elaborate? What do you mean by "Heisenberg is remembered for his theorem on quantum observation being necessarily incomplete"?

And how does that make him a "perspective-seeker"?

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#108

Post by sesqu »

Jugurtha wrote: post #107
sesqu wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heisenberg is remembered for his theorem on quantum observation being necessarily incomplete. It's not terribly surprising to find he had a perspective-seeking approach in other matters.

Pardon me but, can you elaborate? What do you mean by "Heisenberg is remembered for his theorem on quantum observation being necessarily incomplete "? And how does that make him a "perspective-seeker"?

I was referring to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which states that there is an upper limit to the combined precision of a particle's position and momentum. Bohr's take on this was that the limit is due to these concepts being a poor approximation of actual quantum mechanics, which would fit the scientific eminence co-existing with devout religious beliefs in Heisenberg.

I am no physicist, nor am I well versed in Heisenberg's life, but the quotes in the link suggest to me that he has spent a large amount of time pondering ethics, unseen causality, and attributed intent. That is what I meant by seeking perspective.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#109

Post by Jugurtha »

sesqu wrote: post #108
Jugurtha wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon me but, can you elaborate? What do you mean by "Heisenberg is remembered for his theorem on quantum observation being necessarily incomplete "? And how does that make him a "perspective-seeker"?

I was referring to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which states that there is an upper limit to the combined precision of a particle's position and momentum. Bohr's take on this was that the limit is due to these concepts being a poor approximation of actual quantum mechanics, which would fit the scientific eminence co-existing with devout religious beliefs in Heisenberg. I am no physicist, nor am I well versed i…

>I was referring to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

Now I see.. I only took a few physics courses and mostly associate his name when using the inequality, i.e what I think of when I read "uncertainty principle" (also, doing time-frequency signal processing/analysis). I was thrown off by the expression "quantum observation" because I thought you were talking about the observer effect, something that didn't really make me think of him.

Maybe we can chalk it up to cultural differences, but we've never called it like that here (it was always "Heisenberg's uncertainty principle").

>the quotes in the link suggest to me that he has spent a large amount of time pondering ethics, unseen causality, and attributed intent. That is what I meant by seeking perspective.

Indeed. I also think this is the case for the others, too. What's impressive was his almost forensic approach. His remarks read more like an autopsy than someone being in the situation he was in.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#110

Post by sesqu »

Jugurtha wrote: post #109
sesqu wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which states that there is an upper limit to the combined precision of a particle's position and momentum. Bohr's take on this was that the limit is due to these concepts being a poor approximation of actual quantum mechanics, which would fit the scientific eminence co-existing with devout religious beliefs in Heisenberg. I am no physicist, nor am I well versed i…

>I was referring to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle Now I see.. I only took a few physics courses and mostly associate his name when using the inequality, i.e what I think of when I read " uncertainty principle" (also, doing time-frequency signal processing/analysis). I was thrown off by the expression "quantum observation " because I thought you were talking about the observer effect , something that didn't reall…

> I was thrown off by the expression "quantum observation" because I thought you were talking about the observer effect

I admit that the observer effect was the first thing that sprang to mind when I was thinking of how the uncertainty principle was stated. That's probably why I worded it so poorly.

> His remarks read more like an autopsy than someone being in the situation he was in.

Seeing as how all this took place soon after the war, I imagine he may have considered it something of a post-mortem.

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