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Why don't black and white Americans live together?

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Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#91

Post by dwaltrip »

slededit wrote: post #87
dwaltrip wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assessment is incorrect. It falls below 10%, but the majority of the polygons are "unhappy" and waiting to be randomly moved. The program gets stuck continually shuffling the polygons around and it looks like it will never finish (I waited several minutes and no progress was made). It seems likely that this is because each polygon that is moved has a high chance of also being "unhappy" at the new random location…

Correct, but unbounded continual iteration more cleanly represents real life. The real flaw in the simulation is the limitation of free space, the world is a much bigger place.

Well, if we are talking about a city, space is often somewhat scarce. Regardless, I don't think that would reduce segregation.

I think the biggest limitation is "unhappy" polygons moving to random locations, instead of having some choice in the matter. Reducing this limitation would result in faster convergence towards a stable, segregated state, as the choices made would reflect the bias of the participants.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#92

Post by awesomerobot »

clock_tower wrote: post #76
awesomerobot wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might be mixed better overall in specific areas, but there's some significant segregation... anecdotally you can look at Boston and see very clear cross-neighborhood divides. Some mixed areas like the South End (50% white), but also the North End (90% white) and Roxbury (8% white). Roxbury and the North End are only 4 miles away from each other. Not to mention the fact that the fact that Roxbury is only 8% white…

Nitpick: "White" is too coarse-grained for the North End; it's an ethnically mixed area near the end of gentrification, with SWPL elites displacing the native South Italians...

A bit shortsighted that you'd call Italians 'native' to the North End — even if we disregard Native Americans, The North End began with Irish immigrants (who managed to push out a small African community in a section called New Guinea).

The Irish were ultimately pushed out by a mix of Jewish and Italian immigrants (the Jews ultimately shifted to Roxbury and the Italians took hold and established the North End as 'Little Italy').

I don't think gentrification is any more over than it was 100 years ago. It simply cycles.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#93

Post by whamlastxmas »

cameldrv wrote: post #86
neaden wrote: post #17

Oak Park is a suburb next to Chicago that managed to integrate fairly well, but when reading how it happened I was struck at how draconian it was handled. They purposefully wanted an integrated city and tried to sotftly limit or "steer" how many Black people moved in, and to spread them throughout the whole city. There were restrictions on who could sell your home. For sale signs were banned even. They expanded the p…

I grew up in Oak Park, and the result is remarkable, I don't know of any other place like it, especially before it got so much more expensive, in the 80s and 90s. I knew vaguely that this was somewhat engineered, but I never knew to what degree until I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4dzaRJfLpo which is an interview with Roberta Raymond, the architect of Oak Park's successful integration. Some of the…

The part that seems flawed to me is that some racial groups are statistically much less likely to be high income earners. As prices increase tremendously, like you said happened here, you're going to be pushing out these racial groups. It seems like this is an experiment in creating gentrification and displacing disadvantaged minority groups.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#94

Post by acchow »

_rpd wrote: post #82
acchow wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why schools should be funded evenly per student by the state or federal government. Not municipal.

This is a very important policy reform. Readers outside the US may not realize that the school funding system has this inbuilt feedback loop: good schools get more funding from property taxes and keep nearby property values high, bad schools get less funding from property taxes and keep nearby property values low. School quality is often key in determining home buyer location preferences.

School quality also affects home buyer location preference significantly in Canada as well. But Canada doesn't feature this particular financial feedback loop (though there's another feedback loop of well-learned students attracting more parents with well-learned children. But that is not institutionalized and far less severe a problem).

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#95

Post by negamax »

seanwilson wrote: post #51
negamax wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same policy in Singapore. All government houses is distributed as such that people from all backgrounds (religions) get intermingled.

Any views on how well it worked and if it was a good idea?

It was a great idea. Singapore is harmonious and everyone understands each other better, to a major part because of this.

People who grow up in singular neighbourhoods simply don't realise what they are missing in understanding each other. Attending each other's weddings, funerals; talking about political issues forms a strong bond above religious lines

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#96

Post by negamax »

neaden wrote: post #52
negamax wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same policy in Singapore. All government houses is distributed as such that people from all backgrounds (religions) get intermingled.

Does this try to prevent immigrant neighborhoods from forming as well? In the US at least my perception is that immigrant neighborhoods that mainly have first and second generation residents are viewed much more favorably even though they are a form of segregation. The upshot is they allow people to find others that speak their language and stores that sell their food.

My understanding is that this policy is enforced on government housing. Which is really well done and highly subsidised. Many immigrants rent such units, and that does help them understanding the country better

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#97

Post by tptacek »

neaden wrote: post #17

Oak Park is a suburb next to Chicago that managed to integrate fairly well, but when reading how it happened I was struck at how draconian it was handled. They purposefully wanted an integrated city and tried to sotftly limit or "steer" how many Black people moved in, and to spread them throughout the whole city. There were restrictions on who could sell your home. For sale signs were banned even. They expanded the p…

I live in Oak Park, right on its eastern boundary with Austin (near one of the most homogeneously black neighborhoods in Chicago). One of the things I like about my block is that it's almost evenly divided black/white.

But the more expensive center of Oak Park is less well integrated, and some of the same city dynamics that produce disparities elsewhere are at play in Oak Park, too.

It also helps that Oak Park is tiny. You can walk across it in like 20 minutes.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#98

Post by elptacek »

tptacek wrote: post #97
neaden wrote: post #17

Oak Park is a suburb next to Chicago that managed to integrate fairly well, but when reading how it happened I was struck at how draconian it was handled. They purposefully wanted an integrated city and tried to sotftly limit or "steer" how many Black people moved in, and to spread them throughout the whole city. There were restrictions on who could sell your home. For sale signs were banned even. They expanded the p…

I live in Oak Park, right on its eastern boundary with Austin (near one of the most homogeneously black neighborhoods in Chicago). One of the things I like about my block is that it's almost evenly divided black/white. But the more expensive center of Oak Park is less well integrated, and some of the same city dynamics that produce disparities elsewhere are at play in Oak Park, too. It also helps that Oak Park is tin…

Sorry to correct you, dear... I think there are 5 or 6 completely white households on our block out of 39 houses total.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#99

Post by tptacek »

elptacek wrote: post #98
tptacek wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Oak Park, right on its eastern boundary with Austin (near one of the most homogeneously black neighborhoods in Chicago). One of the things I like about my block is that it's almost evenly divided black/white. But the more expensive center of Oak Park is less well integrated, and some of the same city dynamics that produce disparities elsewhere are at play in Oak Park, too. It also helps that Oak Park is tin…

Sorry to correct you, dear... I think there are 5 or 6 completely white households on our block out of 39 houses total.

Do you agree with me that Oak Park is not uniformly well integrated? (I wonder if my perception of it isn't accurate.)

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#100

Post by elptacek »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #88
neaden wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It is also amazing to think about what would happen if a city were to try to do something like this today. I think it could never happen and it would be all over the national media.

When did the situation in Chicago happen?

Start here: http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1050.html
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