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Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org

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Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#31

Post by wtbob »

M_Grey wrote: post #22
Cyph0n wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but one was secret (Unit 731) and the other wasn't if I recall correctly.

That too. The Japanese did a much better job of destroying evidence of such crimes, while the Germans mostly meticulously documented them, and they were too busy running like hell from the Soviets to destroy them all, once they saw what was in store for them.

And also the Germans surrendered 8 May, while the Japanese surrendered 14 August. Over the course of that quarter it had become more and more apparent that WWII wasn't going to end soon (it didn't, in fact, end until 15 March 1991), and that the Soviets were going to be the next enemy, and that we'd need to preserve Germany and Japan in some form (rather than adhering to the earlier Morgenthau Plan, which would have rurified all of Germany, in the process killing millions and making it much easier for the Soviets to roll through Europe).

If there were any fairness, we'd have hanged the Japanese emperor, and quite a few more of his subjects responsible for crimes against humanity. But the political-military situation didn't allow it.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#32

Post by meowface »

Hahn comes across very sympathetically throughout this.

>HAHN: I must honestly say that I would have sabotaged the war if I had been in a position to do so.

>HAHN replied that he too loved his country and that, strange as it might appear, it was for this reason that he had hoped for her defeat.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#33

Post by davesque »

blackflame7000 wrote: post #2

Very cool Article! For all the political discord going on in this day and age, reading this transcript really does make me feel proud to be an American.

I actually agree. It seems there was no other time in recent history when we were truly in the right about so many things. I believe there are some passages in this document that touch on this:

"HAHN: I must honestly say that I would have sabotaged the war if I had been in a position to do so."

"...They then went on to discuss the feelings of the British and American scientists who had perfected the bomb and HEISENBERG said he felt it was a different matter in their case as they considered HITLER a criminal..."

"WEIZSÄCKER: Our strength is now the fact that we are 'un–Nazi'."

Many of the physicists mentioned here expressed doubts about the Nazi regime. Perhaps it could be said that they didn't achieve the bomb because, in many ways, they didn't want their leaders to possess it. So there was a kernel of doubt preventing them from doing so. On the other hand, the Americans did not have that problem since they "considered Hitler a criminal" and viewed it as imperative that they win the war at any cost. Maybe this made the moral question of whether or not to achieve the bomb less of an obstacle for them. That gave a psychological benefit which facilitated the work they were doing.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#34

Post by tomcam »

M_Grey wrote: post #14
Cyph0n wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at Unit 731 vs. the Nazi human experimentation program during WWII. In exchange for the data gathered through 731's history, the U.S. turned a blind eye. The Nazis however were tried by U.S. military courts for conducting such experiments. Hypocrisy at its finest. Unit 731: "Instead of being tried for war crimes, the researchers involved in Unit 731 were secretly given immunity by the U.S. in exchange for…

We did that with plenty of Nazis too... hence NASA. 'I Aim For The Stars'..."(But Sometimes I Hit London)"

Downvoted but why! Genuinely curious

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#35

Post by Cyph0n »

tptacek wrote: post #24
Cyph0n wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be in my opinion. Please think twice and look at the aftermath and devastation that resulted from using nuclear bombs on a civilian population. Both sides were at fault, but to say that the U.S. was objectively right is an oversimplification.

The invasion of Okinawa killed something like 140,000 civilians, in addition to the horrific military casualties. That's just Okinawa.

Holy shit, that's insane...

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#36

Post by dragonwriter »

kmonad wrote: post #27

> WEIZSÄCKER: One can say it might have been a much greater tragedy for the world if Germany had had the uranium bomb. Just imagine, if we had destroyed LONDON with uranium bombs it would not have ended the war, and when the war did end, it is still doubtful whether it would have been a good thing I believe this should be "...and if it did end the war, it is still doubtful..."?

No, I think its exactly right. The war would have ended eventually, somehow, and its doubtful that the change to how it would have wrought by the German use of the A-bomb would have a good one.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#37

Post by Spooky23 »

Cyph0n wrote: post #9
chillacy wrote: post #5

> HEISENBERG replied that had they produced and dropped such a bomb they would certainly have been executed as War Criminals having made the "most devilish thing imaginable" Heh. There's a little piece of truth to how war crimes are prosecuted.

Take a look at Unit 731 vs. the Nazi human experimentation program during WWII. In exchange for the data gathered through 731's history, the U.S. turned a blind eye. The Nazis however were tried by U.S. military courts for conducting such experiments. Hypocrisy at its finest. Unit 731: "Instead of being tried for war crimes, the researchers involved in Unit 731 were secretly given immunity by the U.S. in exchange for…

That's the difference between utter destruction of the enemy vs an unconditional surrender with conditions.

The US was put in a shitty position by the opportunistic Soviet intervention. So we ended up with a curbed emperor, an American who fancied himself an emperor, and whitewash.

Remember that the Republic of China was still a thing, and the political implications of taking a relative soft approach to Japanese atrocities in China would have pretty severe blowback.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#38

Post by throwaway_xx9 »

pinaceae wrote: post #20
67726e wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they started it and would have killed and estimated million of our own (millions of their own!!!) invading the home islands. Why does this happen every damn time it comes up on HN. We didn't just say "hey, fuck those nips". It was the best option for everyone involved.

How many US civilians were killed by Japanese troops total vs. how many innocent women, kids, elderly, artists were firebombed and nuked by the US in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki? This comic book version of history present in the US is disgusting. The US could have nuked a 100% military installation. The US could have detonated the nukes in Tokyo harbor to scare the shit out of the population. No. The US decided to nuk…

Actually, Hiroshima had a bomb assembly plant. So you call them civilians, I call them military production.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#39

Post by tptacek »

meowface wrote: post #32

Hahn comes across very sympathetically throughout this. >HAHN: I must honestly say that I would have sabotaged the war if I had been in a position to do so. >HAHN replied that he too loved his country and that, strange as it might appear, it was for this reason that he had hoped for her defeat.

Otto Hahn is well known for his opposition to Nazism and to nuclear weapons.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#40

Post by tptacek »

Cyph0n wrote: post #35
tptacek wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The invasion of Okinawa killed something like 140,000 civilians, in addition to the horrific military casualties. That's just Okinawa.

Holy shit, that's insane...

The civilian death toll just in ETO Belgium is higher than that of Nagasaki. War is fucked up.
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